Beers with Talos Podcast

Log4j was a big enough deal that we finally decided to host a live show. Mitch, Matt, Liz and special guest JJ Cummings from our Threat Intel team got together to update everyone on where things stand with this critical vulnerabilities. It’s not all doom and gloom though, Matt at least brought some memes!

(Uploaded again, this time with the correct music!) The OG Beers with Talos folks are dropping like flies, because now we also have to say goodbye to Joel! We know this has been quite the roller coaster for listeners, but we appreciate you all sticking with us through all these changes. We take some time in Joel’s farewell to discuss “Rent,” as only BWT could, and burnout in cybersecurity.

Recorded May 11, 2020 – Craig wins MVP of the podcast for his attempts to avoid discussing… something. Anyway, we went a little long on this podcast, but stick with us as we wind through the recent Executive Order on cybersecurity, and then discuss another… interesting take on how we should then combat these new threats. I feel almost obligated to let you know before you listen, it’s a letter of marque take, and oddly, we all agreed on something.Full show notes on the Talos blog

We’re dropping two episodes today. This is undoubtedly the less serious of the two, as it was recorded prior to the invasion of Ukraine. Check out Ep. #118 for more on that situation. In this episode, though, we got to talk about Talos’ involvement at the Super Bowl. Mitch welcomes on Brett Ellis, who was at SoFi Stadium in Los Angeles to help defend “The Big Game,” of Talos Incident Response to discuss his experience. He, JJ and Liz talk about what goes into securing these major global events and talk about what it’s like to have to come in and handle someone else’s networking equipment and then parachute out. If you want to learn more about Talos and Cisco Secure at the Super Bowl, you can read Cisco’s announcement.

This was admittedly a tough one to record. In the middle of us trying to respond to the situation in Ukraine, we felt it was important to let our listeners in a bit. Matt, JJ and Liz discuss the work they and their teams are doing in Ukraine to protect critical systems there and keep users online. We also talk about the human side of things, and why it’s important for folks in cybersecurity to think about self care during this time.If you want to stay up to date on Talos’ work in Ukraine and our ongoing research about cybersecurity concerns in the region, continually check cs.co/TalosUA. Here are some additional links to Talos research and Cisco announcements:Livestream with Cisco ThousandEyes, Cisco Secure and Cisco TalosSpam campaigns leveraging Ukraine themes to spread malware, steal cryptocurrencyCisco’s statement on standing with Ukraine

Re-uploaded on July 22, 2022 to fix audio issues —We’re back from RSA, Cisco Live and COVID breaks (yes, those things are all absolutely related). Paul Eubanks joins the show to talk about his recent blog post on unmasking ransomware actors on the dark web. He’ll go over several different tactics he and his team use to remove actors’ anonymity that’s so important when actors are working on these websites. Liz provides her take on this from an Incident Response perspective, and Matt semi-pays attention as he ponders how much he hates The Carpenters.

We wanted to prep for the RSA/Cisco Live stretch of June by looking back on security conferences past. Mitch, Matt and Liz got together to talk about their best and worst conference memories. Plus, Mitch has an overview of everything Talos is doing at RSA and Cisco Live, including a LIVE episode of Beers with Talos next week at RSA. There is a little security talk at least, as we also cover the latest goings on between the Conti ransomware group and Costa Rica’s government.

Most people would expect us to approach the Winter Olympics from a security perspective. Why are athletes using burner phones? Are we worried about any state-sponsored attacks? Not this year, folks! Instead, we rank each country’s curling uniforms, discuss the origins of ski jumping and debate which events would be the most difficult to compete in.On the actual cybersecurity front, we did carve out some time to discuss two state-sponsored threat actors Talos has written about recently: AridViper and MuddyWater. We look at the maldocs involved in these campaigns and their targets. Matt also expounds on his multiple Twitter threads around the current situation in Ukraine.

We’ve all heard that popular refrain by now: “Well I have nothing to hide so I don’t care if the government sees my data.” This week, we tell these people they are completely wrong. Ashlee Benge joins the show to discuss her upcoming BlackHat talk on the types of data and personal information health apps track. This has taken on special importance in the overturning of Roe vs. Wade in the U.S, making many forms of abortion illegal in many states. Ashlee talks about how women’s health apps may be compelled to cooperate with law enforcement agencies now after the Supreme Court ruling. We also have a complete rundown of all things Talos happening at BlackHat next week.Also, this is unfortunately Liz’s last episode with Beers with Talos. Please bear with us as we figure out the next chapter of the show. Don’t worry though, we’re not going anywhere!

This is a very different episode in that it isn’t really a BWT episode at all. Hazel Burton from the Security Stories podcast invited Matt and Mitch to come on with the leader of Talos, Matt Watchinski. The idea was to chat with Hazel and her co-hosts Ben and Sana about burnout from three levels of a security research team. What followed as we all started talking was real and unfiltered conversation from many very different points of view. We talked about what has worked, what hasn’t, and our own struggles with self-care while trying to take care of our respective teams, families, and friends – hopefully some of our collective experience is useful to you.Original broadcast - Security Stories podcast, ep 27

Recorded March 30, 2021 – What better way to discuss supply chain attacks than to have Matt demonstrate how easily you can blend your payload into normal operations via Twitter shenanigans? We’re talking about (surprise!) supply chain attacks and how their rise to prevalence is notable, albeit expected. Supply chain gets linked in with privacy concerns as we round out the ep discussing the Signal/Cellebrite situation. Listen to the episode before you read Matt’s tweet (linkedin the full show notes) and see if you can pick the words that were part of his little reindeer game. Your prize is the achievement of a job well done. See the full show notes on the Talos blog

Recorded March 2021 – ICS and SCADA systems are deeply embedded all around us in critical infrastructure. Today we talk about some of the inherent issues in infrastructure security and take a wide-ranging look at the ICS- and SCADA-specific issues found there. Joe Marshall from the Talos Outreach group joins to share his insights on the space and how donuts are the ultimate career track switching tool. Oh- and Matt’s cat discovers jerky.Full show notes on the Talos blog

We’ve been quiet for a minute, but we have a few new EPs ready to go, starting with some of your questions from Twitter. And yes, one of the first questions concerns Craig and the robots. Do you have a question you’d like to ask us for the next listener questions episode? Send us a tweet (links below). Ask us anything security related or something else entirely. It’s your question, I’m not going to tell you what to ask. Full show notes on the Talos blog

Recorded January 8, 2020 – It’s hard to believe that we have made 100 episodes of BWT. It easily feels like two or three times that many. This is a long winded show, as we welcome back our buddy Nigel for this special milestone. As an unintentional nod to our early episodes, the opening roundtable gets way off track and we basically host an “In-between” ep in the middle of a regular show. We also dig into supply chain attacks, in light of the recent SolarWinds incident, delving into defensive and IR strategies. Finally, we take a trip into the past remembering some of our favorite moments from the past 100 times I’ve written these show notes.Full show notes on the Talos blog

This EP was recorded toward the end of the year and lived a quiet, but meaningful life in the production queue patiently waiting it’s turn to get released. In this Ep, we dig into a discussion on passwords and some of the issues both conceptually and in practice. Passwords aren’t inherently problematic, but how they are used…sometimes is. We discuss best practices to share with your friends and also touch on MFA (and SMS as an option of last resort). Craig seems to think lock analogies are key to understanding everything. The session was 2 hours long and this is the balance remaining after decency and standards review.All of us want to thank you for listening and making three years and (almost)100 episodes of Beers with Talos possible. Cheers. Full show notes on the Talos blog

Recorded early November, 2020 – This is an EP we recorded in early November but got pushed back in the end of year shuffle to make production schedules work. We’re happy to put this one out now with somewhat belated takes on (somewhat recent) health care ransomware attacks. We discuss a few key questions that are rather evergreen. Why is health care targeted in this way (and other verticals for that matter)? What defines a “high value” target to a ransomware actor? How can targeted entities better defend themselves?Full notes on the Talos blog

Recorded November 24, 2020 –On this EP, Mitch and Matt are joined by Wendy Nather to discuss the newly released Cisco Security Outcomes Study. The results and findings of the research are interesting and somewhat surprising. As often happens with most good research, we end up asking more questions - in this case, geared toward the nature of the relationships found in the data. Special thanks to Wendy for coming on and joining us. As usual, her insight is stellar and she is much more entertaining than the rest of us.Full show notes on the Talos blog

We got delayed with the holidays and PTO, but here is a long awaited ep. The rest of the year is on deck to release through the holidays, so fret not. In this EP we talk about QR codes becoming pervasive as easily deployed “touchless tech” (and how they could help the robots try to kill Craig), and then we take a look at some recent DOJ and APT activity that begs the question: is bringing charges against foreign APT actors anything more than a symbolic gesture? Full show notes on the Talos blog

Recorded October. 9, 2020 –We are running a short bench today after Nigel’s retirement and Joel being on vacation. We start off talking about how specific use cases don’t equate to the death of entire defensive technologies, despite the frequent assertions otherwise you may find on Twitter. The key to defense in depth is that no silver bullet stops everything - nothing is surprising here.The big focus of this EP, leading into the 2020 election is, of course, election security. We recap some important points from our research and go over materials we have put together for election officials and voters alike. Please take a minute to go though the links in the extended show notes on the Talos blog for a full list of Talos elections security and disinformation resources.

Recorded Sept. 25, 2020 –Today is Nigel’s last episode as a regular host of BWT. Join us in wishing him a happy transition to his next chapter - as we all know, Nigel won’t ever actually retire. Today’s show is us chatting with Nigel - about his career and his take on the industry as he entered, and now as he moves on to whatever comes next. Every aspect of Talos is better off because Nigel was here, as well as so many of the people he impacted along the way.We will all miss your daily presence, but we are excited to see what you come up with next. Cheers.Full show notes on the Talos blog

On today’s show we take several of the larger security myths that are often heard around things like patching vulnerabilities - specifically the notion that more patches indicate less secure software. We also talk about other “common knowledge”-esque bits of advice we’ve all often come across. We could do a whole episode on silver bullets that (spoiler alert) weren’t. Let us know some of your favorite silver flashes on Twitter or drop us an email.Full show notes on the Talos Blog

Disinformation is front and center right now. As disinformation efforts constantly increase, platforms struggle to contain the problem without giving the appearance of censuring or controlling all information present. A Talos research team recently published some findings on the building blocks of disinformation campaigns (available via link below). Special guest Kendall McKay joins us to discuss the research she co-authored with her team in Talos. We go over exactly what defines disinformation and the most pervasive sources. We also look at who these actors are and how they operate at scale while remaining hidden. Full show notes on the Talos blog

Recorded August 14, 2020 –Let’s talk about FUD - it’s not enough to just say FUD sucks. Let’s talk about exactly how and why producers of FUD are garbage nightmare monster people. We also cover how they are actually damaging themselves, not just the people and organizations that buy their hype. We have rather strong opinions on this, so we invited Meredith Corley, an actual professional on the topic, to break it down for us all. Meredith is our Security communications and PR Director (previously of Duo and Blackhat fame) and takes us through spotting, defusing, and refuting FUD in the security community.Full show notes on the [Talos blog}(https://blog.talosintelligence.com/2020/09/beers-with-talos-ep-91-get-fud-out.html)

Recorded July 31, 2020 –This week in BWT land, we’re discussing hacktivism - from the unintended consequences to the tropes perpetuated by Hollywood. Regardless of the reason or cause, hacktivism often wields DDoS and web defacement as easily deployed tools. We discuss some instances where using code as a weapon without deeper understanding can have disastrous consequences. The crew also digs deeper into the ethical considerations of hacktivism, pseudo anonymity, and the intended impact of civil disobedience on civil society.Full show notes on the Talos Blog

Recorded July 17, 2020 –The gang’s all back this week, and we take on what happens when you get pwnd, hacked, or your data is leaked. It happens to all of us eventually, one quick moment connecting to public wifi, clicking on a bad link when you just aren’t paying enough attention, or your account data is leaked through no real fault of your own. So, what do you do first when it happens to you? Sure, this is a fundamental review for some, but you can thank us the next time your brother’s co-worker’s uncle calls you because: “these hackers” - and you can just send a link to this episode. (If you were sent this link from your niece or nephew, I’m sorry you had to find out this way, but no worries, we got you).Full show notes on the Talos blog

Nigel is out this week, but we have a couple light and breezy topics on the docket: 0-day research and the institutions of democracy. FUN STUFF!! First, we chat about 0-day research tools and the questions raised around them, contrasted to the time before security research was widely accepted. We spend the last half of the show discussing some of the findings and finer points of Matt’s recently released research paper on election security “What to expect when you’re electing”.

Has it been 3 years already? We have a great episode to celebrate! We start off chatting about the origins of BWT and what made it… I don’t know… the way that it is. We also have some great guests. Hazel and Ben from the Security Stories podcast come by to talk about another anniversary of note to all of us - NotPetya. We also chat about what makes storytelling a powerful tool (even in security), and atypical paths to careers in cybersecurity. While we are talking about communication, we wrap up this ep discussing and sharing what worked (and still works) for Talos over the series of critical response events that included NotPetya and one of our very first podcast episodes.Full show notes on the Talos blog

Recorded June 5, 2020 –Prod. Note: Things are a hot mess right now and the team thinks that there are voices you have needed to hear more than ours, so we held back on releasing a few episodes. This is the last of those withheld eps, please pardon any weeks-old info. Be safe, be kind, and listen to each other. Black lives matter.This was a difficult show to make in light of the events the week prior. We were all in a mood along with the rest of the US and the world, and it showed. There was no amount of editing that could save that Roundtable. Regardless, we dig into vulnerabilities and exploits this episode starting with looking at the top 10 most exploited vulns from a recent CISA report (Full disclosure: Talos assisted in the creation of that report). We start to dig into some deeper convos around pentesting platforms and exploit stability that are sure to come back up soon. Full show notes on the Talos blog

Recorded May 29, 2020 – Prod. Note: Things are a hot mess right now and the team thinks that there are voices you have needed to hear more than ours, so we held back on releasing a few episodes. We are releasing those now, please pardon any weeks-old info. Be safe, be kind, and listen to each other. Black lives matter.This is the last of the In-Between episodes. Thanks for having fun with this non-security miniseries across a span of weeks that I am not even going to try and neatly sum up in snarky podcast notes. We started this miniseries as a fun way for us to stay connected and put some extra podcasts in your playlist as we all got used to new routines and staying at home. We can’t keep that pace forever, so here is where the In-Between wraps. The questions you’ve sent us on Twitter have been amazing, you can expect to see that become a recurring thing. I hope that you’ve enjoyed these episodes as much as we enjoyed making them. From all of us, thank you for listening and stay safe - Cheers.Full show notes on the Talos blog

Recorded May 26, 2020 – Prod. Note: Things are a hot mess right now and the team thinks that there are voices you have needed to hear more than ours, so we held back on releasing a few episodes. We are releasing those now, please pardon any weeks-old info. Be safe, be kind, and listen to each other. Black lives matter.You, our audience, have asked this question a lot - in person, on Twitter, in DMs, and one of you even sent me InMail - so we spend a whole EP talking about advancing your career in the middle stages - whether you are interested in jumping on the management track or rising to the top of the engineering/technical hill, there are certain skills, relationships, and habits that will make your quest more effective. Quest? Wow, I have really been playing too many games lately.Full show notes on the Talos blog

Recorded May 15, 2020 –Prod. Note: Things are a hot mess right now and the team thinks that there are voices you have needed to hear more than ours, so we held back on releasing a few episodes. We are releasing those now, please pardon any weeks-old info. Be safe, be kind, and listen to each other. Black lives matter.Sammi (inexplicably) continues tolerating hanging out with the rest of the crew on the The In-Between. As usual, we avoid discussing security at all costs. These EPs are all about keeping in touch and catching up to chat. We talk about cool stuff we are watching to occupy our time and JOEL DID HIS ONE JOB! so, we are taking your (amazing) questions from Twitter. Keep sending your questions for our regular episodes as well — @TalosSecurity #BWT.

Brad Garnett from Cisco Talos Incident Response joins us today to talk about DFIR, the Talos Quarterly Trends Report, and how a high-speed police chase on reality TV kick-started his DFIR career. That’s not even clickbait, for real. After Brads drops a quick IR trends briefing on us, the crew drills down on some key findings. (IDK what that means either, but there were good questions asked and great discussions in response).We are taking your questions from Twitter so keep sending them for the next “The In-Between” episode — @TalosSecurity #BWT.

Recorded May 1, 2020 –Sammi is back and the rest of the crew is here to hang out, chat, and as is The In-Between Way - avoid discussing security at all. These EPs are all about just keeping in touch and having some fun. Despite Joel forgetting his one. job. on this podcast, we are taking your (sometimes crazy) questions from Twitter on these episodes, so keep sending them for the next “The In-Between” episode — @TalosSecurity #BWT.Full show notes on the Talos blog

Matt isn’t with us today, but the rest of the crew discusses current security issues in our new WFH environment, including some more-than-the-basics advice on how to protect yourself and your organization’s data while working wherever. We go a bit more in depth on VPN and explain how VPNs work, how they protect you, and more importantly, how they DON’T protect you. The key takeaway of this podcast, however, is that we need to start a campaign to formally recognize the legitimacy of Social Mulligans (this counts as a trademark, right?)Send us your questions for the next “Quittin’ Time” episode — @TalosSecurity #BWT.Full show notes on the Talos Blog

We are renaming these episodes - “Quittin’ time” was okay and all, but “The In-between” better captures what these eps are. Compared to our normally named eps, you can expect the same lack of actual security content presented in Vol. 1, just a shorter format. You seem to enjoy us taking your (sometimes crazy) questions from Twitter, so keep sending them! We are doing these extra episodes because we need to laugh and have some fun right now, and hopefully give you the same little break from reality - we want you to come on in and have a laugh on us.Send us your questions for the next “The In-Between” episode — @TalosSecurity #BWT.Full show notes on the Talos blog

We have a couple great topics today - and only one of them is a COVID-19 related topic. So, it turns out that you can fake fingerprints - the good news is that it takes a lot of time, equipment, and expertise. It is much easier for a criminal to just make you unlock it yourself. We have also seen an unprecedented level of collaboration and righteous anger across all vendors responding to COVID-based scams. Literally everyone is just watching, documenting, and hunting anything even tangentially related to the current health crisis. The challenge is that all the cooks are in the kitchen, which is really a good problem to have…Send us your questions for the next “Quittin’ Time” ep! — @TalosSecurity #BWT.Full show notes on the Talos Blog

Recorded April 3, 2020 – We’re kinda bored. We figured you are too. So we decided to get together between normal recordings to help save you from the bottom of the Netflix barrel. It gets weird down there. These Quittin’ Time eps are just the crew hanging out for a bit without a security topic agenda. Sans. None of that. Honestly, if you’re not a fan of the banter in the Roundtable and Closing Thoughts segments, this …probably isn’t your cup of tea. Anyway, we have fun getting together and feeling more normal for a bit, we hope you have fun listening to the heavily edited version of that. Send us your questions for the next QT ep - @TalosSecurity #BWT.Full show notes available on the Talos blog.

Our goal is always to talk to you about what’s on our minds. Right now, we are pretty sure we all have the same thing on our minds. In addition to our regular show material, we want to talk through some of the things that we are dealing with professionally and personally in the hopes that it applies and is useful to you. To that end, we asked Sammi Seaman (our Education coordinator and resident mega-extrovert) to stop by and chat with us about the challenges of working from home and shifting the way we work. We aren’t breaking any massive news and threats this week, rather we are talking about what the industry is thinking about. As a heads up, we are increasing episodes from biweekly to weekly, and rotating in different topics while we’re all stuck at home. Hopefully, this is helpful for you and us both.Drop us a tweet and let us know what is on your mind. Be safe, and wash your hands, you filthy animals. Full show notes on the Talos blog.

Recorded 3/13/20 - Of course we have to talk about the implications of Coronavirus to the way business and security are getting done. While everything about the COVID-19 pandemic seems to be a fluid situation, a rare constant has been the same rehashed disaster scams. But that could quickly change with the mass shift toward remote work. This episode takes a look at both securing that shift as well as practical advice for those of us finding ourselves as newly remote employees. Full show notes on the Talos blog

Recorded 3/02/20 - We open up the show with a sugary sweet poem before talking about RSA and our annual trip through the startup hall. Matt expertly segues the crew into talking about the impact the security industry can have on public-interest technologies and civil society - both in the industry sense as well as in the interpersonal sense. FInally, we take a look at opposing mindsets and approaches, discussing how partnering with an adversarial approach is not near the oxymoron it seems.Full show notes on the Talos blog

Recorded 2/19/20 - Craig made an oopsie. He sends his apologies for the echo-chamber reverb. We had no idea until he sent in his audio for mixing, we would never do this to you intentionally. This is a shorter ep focusing on software licencing and features as well as vulnerability disclosure. Join us to talk about vendors abilities to disable feature sets and owning versus using products. We further chat about vulnerabilities and how a vendor with no security advisories is often seen as a “more secure” option, when in fact, that can mean the exact opposite.Full show notes on the Talos blog

Recorded 1/31/20 - When a vulnerability is released, regardless if it has a website and logo or not, we need to understand the risk to the network and what defense options are possible before the patch is ready for production. Can you defend against the vulnerability or do you go straight for known exploits? What happens if an exploit occurs? Also discussed: Talos begins releasing Threat Assessment Reports based on IR engagement data and known prevalent threats. Snort has a new series of training and lab videos available for Snort 2 and Snort3.Full show notes on the Talos blog

Recorded 1/20/20 - Powershell is a frequent flyer in security headlines - a powerful and oft wielded tool for attackers and defenders alike. This ep takes a look at Powershell and how to help ensure its security posture as an effective management tool. We also look at the missing-the-forrest-for-the-trees concept of behind being concerned about the latest shiny ATP before all else.Full show notes on the Talos blog

Recorded 1/6/20 - There is a looming cyber conflict on the horizon between the US and Iran. We use all our time this week to discuss the situation at hand and take a hard look at what you should have already done foundationally. The crew offers insight and analysis of what nation-state cyber conflict looks like and what you can do to elevate your security strategy to the next level in an uncertain time of increased suspicion.Full show notes on the Talos blog

Recorded 12/20/19 - In a shorter year-end EP, we take a look back and a look forward. It seems everyone else wants to break out the crystal ball this time of year and prognosticate the coming year’s threat landscape. We don’t have one of those, so we used a Magic 8-ball, but we’re pretty confident the results are as-good or better. However, most of the EP is dedicated to going through the notable security events of the past year. We take a look at the lasting effects and lessons learned from 2019’s biggest threats.Full show notes on the Talos blog

Recorded 12/9/19 - We have a big announcement to make today! Check your feed for a few Ep’s of a new podcast from Talos - “Talos Takes”. On this Ep of BWT, we welcome Joe Marshall to the table - Joe is a Talos ICS/IoT tech lead and he stops by to discuss issues in the IoT space - macro and micro, from both the vendor and user perspectives. Check out the crew’s advice on staying secure in this IoT gift giving season.We will see you in the new year, and thanks for listening in 2019. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all!!!Full show notes on the Talos blog

Craig is out sick/injured/fighting robots (actually all three), so we brought in Sean Mason from Talos IR to talk shop today and give you the inside scoop on IR (and Sean’s next-level beard care regimen). How do incidents affect the enterprise and consumers? How has the advent of widespread ransomware fundamentally shifted the burden of responsibility in the c-suite and what have been the outcomes? What does a responder have in the bag when they arrive on-site?Full show notes on the Talos blog

Recorded 11/8/19 - Joel is out on PTO, so Mitch, Matt, Nigel, and Craig carry the banner this EP discussing how attackers approach targets like investors looks at portfolio. We also talk about how the most recent off-cycle elections in the US give us a glimpse of improvements and changes in election security. Finally, we take a quick look at popular scams and how attackers use seasonality to increase the relevance of their scam for emotional response.Full notes on the Talos Blog

Recorded 10/25/19 - Today is a bit different. We normally keep things pretty neutral on this show (not really), but today is all about the new service Talos is launching - say hello to Talos Incident Response. Amy Henderson from the Talos Intel and Interdiction group joins us as we discuss the full circle of threat intelligence - from global visibility to hyper local context, and how IR allows those feed each other to the improvement of both. Listen to the announcement as we discuss what IR is, what it means in general, and what Talos brings to that equation. We hope you are half as excited as we are, because that is still pretty dang excited. Lastly, Craig isn’t with us today, but you get to decide his fate for being dishonest with you, dear listeners. We will deliver you justice.Full show notes - and more in-depth info on the Talos blog

Recorded 10/10/19 - This EP lives up to it’s name, by trying to only take on a minimal topic and then becoming completely convoluted. We start of with an extended round table (I even cut like half of it out) and then start talking about the trials and tribulations of making things too complex - from software to network design. If the devil is in the details, then the danger is in there being too many of them. We take two simple examples - PDF readers and a trip to the doctors office - and look at how the complexity jammed into the tech around these two things is where things become disturbingly dangerous.Full show notes on the Talos blog