Weird Data: Same Sex Attracted Men Not Gay?

In this episode, we dive deep into the nuanced world of human sexuality, examining the often misunderstood distinctions between same-sex attraction and being gay. Using various statistics and studies, the hosts discuss why it's inaccurate to categorize all same-sex attracted individuals as gay, and how these misunderstandings affect societal perception and personal identity. They also explore the phenomenon of Mormon men with same-sex attraction choosing heterosexual lifestyles and the cultural and psychological implications of these choices. Furthermore, the episode addresses how progressive and conservative views clash over issues of sexual morality, personal choice, and the impacts of arousal patterns on behavior and identity.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] yes, you can be same sex attracted and not gay. And it's not even like a weird cope thing. It's just by the statistics, it doesn't make sense to categorize everyone who's same sex attracted as gay.

Because it sort of becomes arbitrary and you'll see this at the statistics

For example, while the 30 percent of males and females we surveyed who found the feminine form arousing also found the sight of a vagina a turnoff, not a single survey participant who found the male form arousing were simultaneously turned off by penises. However, 26 percent of men who found the site of a penis arousing simultaneously found the male form aversive.

But if you prefer the female form, there's more than a 25 percent chance, more than a quarter chance, you're going to find penises. Penis is arousing, even if you're a male,

Baby: which is just fascinating. Like what

Malcolm Collins: the is going on here. Right? Like there's, there's clearly like a system [00:01:00] at play in this way. I love researching this stuff because like psychologists, because they're so stuck in this gay straight dichotomy, they have missed that there is something more interesting going on.

Your entire life should not be oriented around getting off as easily as possible. Like, it is so weird that for progressives, you try to, like It's not a good look. It doesn't look the way you think it looks.

Speaker 6: There is more to life than what turns you on. Sure the path is harder, but we both mean it through this barter. You don't You don't have to do a thing

There is more to life than feelin good There is more to life than havin would This is somethin we once understood You don't have to do a thing

[00:02:00] What could be more important than ,

Simone Collins: sexual arousal patterns

Richard? Science?

Would you like to know more?

Malcolm Collins: Simone! This is gonna be an interesting episode. Really? It was inspired by conversation around a new show called My Husband's Not Gay.

This sounds fun! Yes Mormon Same Sex Attracted Men, or SSA men, who While biologically they're same sex attracted, prefer to live a lifestyle in which they marry a woman and have children in a heterosexual relationship. And, as you can imagine, progressives are losing their mind over this. Where I saw this was in a, a, the popular YouTuber was talking about this called Curtis Connor, who's got around 5.

[00:03:00] 2 million subscribers. So the video he did on this has 3. 5 million views. So, you know, talk about aspirational for us. Right.

Speaker: My husband's not gay. The episode starts with an introduction to Jeff and Tanya, who have been together for nine years, and they also have a son together. And this is when they hear the term that they use to describe their lifestyle. I experience SSA, or same sex attraction. Not gay. All I notice first, a beautiful man walking down the street, or a beautiful woman walking down the street, I'll notice the beautiful man nine times out of ten.

Okay, someone who's attracted to men, thinks about men, wants to be with men, but also wants to be in a hetero relationship. Somebody that is attracted to the same sex, but wants to be in a heterosexual relationship. Not gay, SSA. Not gay, SSA. That's the new no homo.

Malcolm Collins: But obviously, you know, he's progressive. He made a point of, of whining about Trump in it. And he was like, these people shouldn't basically culturally be allowed to do this.

Simone Collins: Oh, [00:04:00] how dare you express your sexuality?

However you please.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, no, it's really interesting to me that progressives are so anti choice when it comes with individual sexuality, where they're like, if you have this arousal pattern, you have to adapt.

It's funny that the way that he speaks about Mormons is exactly the way I feel about ultra Progressive's. And they're extreme limitations in terms of the types of sexual choices. They let people live out. Because.

Being aroused by men. This was not this guy's choice. What is his choice is who he chooses to marry and how he chooses to live his life.

Speaker 5: Yeah, super sad. The fact that there's only one acceptable expression of love in a religion is pretty fucked up, to be honest. You're like, that's not really a religion you want to be a part of, but, you know, what do I know?

Simone Collins: Only selectively, because there are some sexual arousal patterns that they still do not allow.

[00:05:00] Both.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, they're, they're, they're coming around. I'll tell you, they're coming around on this map stuff. This minor attracted person stuff. They're coming around.

Simone Collins: Yes. However, in the UK, it's not okay to be into like BDSM, right? You know, you have to remove any Oh yeah, you're

Malcolm Collins: not allowed to be into people being hurt in Yeah, so Even if it's clearly consensual and you created it yourself.

Or if it's clearly consensual and animated, like cartoon, like no real people, illegal in the UK. It has been for like over a decade at this point. This, this was really scary living in the UK because I was like if I go to court, like, even if it's fairly tame stuff, if I go to court over pornography, that's going to really mess up my life.

Simone Collins: It doesn't look good on one's record. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: right. Yeah. But anyway, the, the point here being is that it is interesting to me that the progressive option here is to say, Oh, you're a same sex attractive Catholic and you [00:06:00] decide to join the priesthood, which by the way, depending on the statistics, you're looking around at 50 percent of Catholic priests are same sex attracted, which is just a, a.

F*****g awesome cultural solution, by the way.

Baby: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: You're a culture that says you are not allowed to have same sex relationships, but if you happen to be same sex attracted, we have an institution for you where you can basically be an ethically sourced eunuch. So we don't need to worry about you being part of the religious hierarchy, accidentally having kids and then you showing nepotism towards those kids.

And we talk about this a lot more in some of our other content around this. But it seems like a good solution until you realize, yeah, but might that create like a weird thing around how they relate to young people under their care? And then you're like, Oh yes, I can see why the Bible warrants against allowing people to have leadership positions in the church.

If they are unmarried.

I love it when people are like, but Malcolm, you're [00:07:00] removing these people's choices and I'm like, no, you're removing their choices. They can choose to not be a Catholic priest. They can choose to not be a Catholic. They can choose to leave the Mormon faith. These things are all optional. No one is holding a gun to their head.

You are the one thing I disapprove of their choice to continue to stay in the Mormon church and live a Mormon lifestyle. If they are aroused by men.

I always loved when I point out I'm like, why is it that some arousal patterns mandate that you live a certain lifestyle, like live as a gay person,

And there's other arousal patterns, which seem just as biologically ingrained in people, just as inborn. When you look at the data where you would say you should never engage with that, no matter what ever.

And they'll say, okay. Okay. Okay. It becomes mandated that you live your life. That way, if it doesn't cause any negative social externalities and it doesn't hurt anyone.

And I'm like, oh, really interesting. So then you must've been super homophobic in anti-gay. During the aids epidemic, right? Because there was a [00:08:00] reason why a lot of religions ban this, you know, like it, it led to an extreme spread of disease.

That has killed an estimated 42.3 million people since its beginning. And in its early days spread.

Faster and further.

Because gay sex was beginning to become socially normalized. Now it doesn't only spread through gay sex, but you're basically logging. If you're saying that gay sex didn't contribute to the spread and the scope of the aids epidemic, as we can see by its decimation of the gay community.

Now, obviously the technology is different and you can have a different stance on it, but I'm asking during the aids epidemic, if that's the stance you're holding. And you're like, no, no, no, no, no.

Let's see. There's a special carve out for it during the aids epidemic. And it's like, Why. Because you have elevated this one form of arousal as holding some form of like additional religious significance that you're not allowed to question.

But before we go further here, what we're going to go into is I would actually argue from the sexuality statistics. [00:09:00] Is yes, you can be same sex attracted and not gay. And it's not even like a weird cope thing. It's just by the statistics, it doesn't make sense to categorize everyone who's same sex attracted as gay.

Because it sort of becomes arbitrary and you'll see this at the statistics. I mean it sound insane what i'm saying it and I should note i'm saying this as a person who isn't even a little bit same sex attracted I remember I had a lot of gay friends growing up. And I had a long conversation with a roommate who later came out as gay And he didn't understand why I would only watch Well, funnily, gay porn, i.

e. lesbian porn and I was like, I just like, cannot

Simone Collins: get

Malcolm Collins: aroused if there is a male anywhere near a pornographic scene that I'm looking at and that makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. It does. It

Simone Collins: does. I, I would imagine intuitively to me, it seems like if you're what, what was the word that was seen as very astute?

[00:10:00] Offensive super straight if you're like, yeah, if you're turned off by the sight of a penis. You're not going to want to see dicks in your porn.

Malcolm Collins: Actually, interesting, Simone. some of The guys who fall into this category, and you'll see this in the statistics we're about to go over, are not disgusted by the sight of a penis.

They're disgusted by the sight of a male form. This is why FUDA porn is so common in the hentai category. Oh, okay, wait, wait. So

Simone Collins: the, the, I'm definitely straight men are attracted to penises, but not attracted to the male form.

Malcolm Collins: Well, they're not necessarily disgusted by penises.

So they are okay with two women having sexes. If one of those women, this is what FUDA porn is for people who aren't aware has a penis because it allows them to, even by removing males from their porn in this entirely fantasy context, e P I V, penis and vagina sex with e porn, but have no man participating.

In that scene. [00:11:00] And actually, when we did the survey on this, and we asked men who were predominantly into FUDA porn if they saw these as trans women, they do not. Most men, at least in terms of their arousal patterns, see a trans woman. As a man. Even if they otherwise present very femininely. Which is, I think, really interesting, but let's let's get into this.

And I should clarify here that this is not what I am into. , I will let it slip at near the end of this discussion. If you ended up watching the whole video, when I am into though.

but it is really important to be asking these questions. Why are certain things being seen in pornography? For example, why is food pornography common? And you can say, well, why is it useful to understand something like this, about human arousal patterns? Here's why. Because as soon as you understand this, you can understand that many of the men who become convinced they're trans. May actually just have a [00:12:00] disgust reaction. To other men.

And so when they're looking at pornography or something like that, they have this disgust reaction. Whenever they see men, or when they look at a penis, they might have a disgust reaction to a penis ,

And they look at their mail form in a mirror and they go, Ooh, this is disgusting. , because evolution didn't have us. Evolve around mirrors. It never needed to not code to our own bodies to find our own bodies as gross looking. and they say, oh

I must not like being a man. When in reality, it's no for evolutionary reasons, you. I didn't want to be sexually engaging in an environment where other men were present.

And if you are for example, a young autistic person whose brain isn't fully developed. , you realize, oh, I am super disgusted by the sight of men. even, even when that man is myself, , therefore, , in this ultra categorizer mindset, I must actually be a woman.

When that's [00:13:00] not what's happening at all, it's just a normal part of male sexuality.

And so, because I took the time to dive into the world of pornography and look at what types of pornography are common and think about why these types of pornography might be common. I now have additional information on sexuality so that when I am teaching my kids about their sexuality and what they might expect from it, I can inform them about this potential pitfall and perhaps prevent , one of them who might otherwise have been convinced to transition that. No, this is just a normal part of male sexuality.

This is also why it's really important that we, as I've said in another videos, don't go around telling young girls that it's super weird for a girl to be in two scenarios where they are hurt or subjugated by a male, because it turns out that most girls are into that. And so if you teach your daughters that because you didn't take time to actually look into human sexuality, Then they're going to grow up thinking they're a sexual deviant, which makes it much easier for [00:14:00] them to engage in. Other or additional forms of sexual deviancy, because they're like, well, the cat's already out of the bag on that one. So it matters to engage with this information.

Let's do it.

All right. So, and I'm just going to be quoting for the pragmatist guide to sexuality. One of the books we wrote and which we did big series of surveys for. I need to break this down here.

So what we are arguing in this particular subsection is that the arousal pattern does not seem cued to males and females. It seems more cued to primary and secondary sex characteristics. So. If you're not sure what primary and secondary sex characteristics are, primary sex characteristics are the sex characteristics which are used directly in reproduction.

So this would be a penis or a vagina. Secondary sex characteristics are things cued to things other than direct reproduction. So this would be, um, what are the words I'm looking for here? Like a, a masculine or feminine form, a [00:15:00] masculine or feminine voice masculine or feminine. Like feet,

Simone Collins: hands, vocal tone, all sorts of, of general clues or themes.

It's almost like if, if if a penis or a vagina, they're the language. The secondary sexual characteristics are the accent, the lilt, the tonality, the music of the, of the language.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. The point here being is that it turns out that it's actually fairly frequent that an individual will find One particular gender's secondary sex characteristics arousing or repulsive and be a, have an inverse arousal or repulsion to the primary sex characteristics.

In other

Simone Collins: words, it's like each person gets several rolls of the dice and most. People's understanding of sexuality is you get one roll of the dice. You're into men or you're into women or you're [00:16:00] into both. Like the dice, like it's like, hang, it's like, you know, it fell on a corner and it won't fall one way or the other.

What, what really is happening is you're getting. Several rolls of the dice. You get to roll on vaginas. You get to roll on penises. You get to roll on butts. You get to roll on feet. You get to roll on shapes. You get to roll on hits. And like, you're getting all these things. Well, no, no. What I'm arguing

Malcolm Collins: is you're not getting several rolls of the dices.

You're getting two rolls of the dices. It's what gender primary sex characteristics do you want? Like what gender secondary sex characteristics do you like? So

Simone Collins: it's just,

Malcolm Collins: so

Simone Collins: we're every all day. So basically all primary and all secondary were correlated in the research generally

Malcolm Collins: correlated and bundled together.

I thought

Simone Collins: they were unbundled, but no, they're not done this. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Primary and secondary sex characteristics are heavily bundled in our data. Which is, oh, I'm thinking

Simone Collins: about just random arousal things, you know?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. That's not what this is. This is, you know, I'm thinking about like

Simone Collins: pain shaming dominance.

Malcolm Collins: Those are not unbundled, [00:17:00] by the way. Those appear in bundled packages as well. We'll get into that in a separate video. Okay. Before we go further, we have to note here about our sexual theory that we lay out in the pragmatist guide to sexuality.

I won't go that far into it, but we argue that sexuality is not a spectrum from disinterest To arousal. It is a spectrum from arousal to disgust with disinterest in the middle. And that the arousal, the disgust feeling is literally operating off of the arousal system with a negative modifier attached to it or vice versa.

The two emotions are exactly the same. inverts of each other. When you are aroused, you look at something longer, you typically breathe inwards, your pupils typically dilate. When you are disgusted by something, you typically look away from it, you typically hold your nose or attempt to not breathe, and your pupils contract.

You try to get away from it if you're disgusted, you try to interact with it more if you're aroused. It is the same system, and the data [00:18:00] supports this in that when the system breaks you are much more likely to be aroused by something that , most people find disgusting or disgusted by something that most people find arousing than random.

Like you, for example, people don't find fire disgusting or arousing, but many people have a strong emotional reaction to fire or heights. Fetishes around fire or heights are incredibly rare. It's not any strong, naturally pre evolved emotion, but arousal to creepy crawlers, like having insects poured on your face.

That's actually a pretty common fetish arousal to the feces, urine, stuff like that, actually pretty common. So things that cause natural disgust are actually pretty common to create fetishes because you're basically getting the, Multiply by negative mixed up or multiply by positive mixed up at some point in the developmental process or genetic process.

All right. So do what we're saying here. Our study yielded some supporting evidence for this. It seems to be very common for an individual to find female primary sex characteristics, aversive, [00:19:00] but female secondary sex characteristics arousing, i. e. to find the feminine form arousing, but a vagina gross.

Our survey study showed that 30 percent of males and 32 percent of females who find the female form arousing find vaginas aversive. That is astronomically high. That's much bigger than the reported gay population. Which I think shows that this is just a better description of what's going on than gay or straight.

Our research also suggests that in the average person the secondary sex characteristic detecting system Has a much higher average quote unquote volume than the system detecting primary sex characteristics For example, the average guy will derive more arousal from the feminine form than they will from the vagina From our survey, 89 percent of men rate the female form at the highest level of arousal generation, while only 71 percent rate the vagina the same way.

We find it amusingly ironic that the organs used explicitly for reproduction are less cause [00:20:00] less arousal than secondary sex characteristics. We developed these two theories before running our survey. While there are ways we can twist our data to fit them as we did above, we must be honest and admit that our data really suggests that something a little more complicated is going on.

So I was wrong when I told Simone earlier that they are totally bundled.

They are loosely bundled.

in very weird ways, which we'll get into in a second.

For example, while the 30 percent of males and females we surveyed who found the feminine form arousing also found the sight of a vagina a turnoff, not a single survey participant who found the male form arousing were simultaneously turned off by penises.

Not a single participant who found the male form arousing were turned off by penises. However, 26 percent of men who found the site of a penis arousing simultaneously found the male form aversive. So there's [00:21:00] something weird going on with penises and vaginas specifically. If you find the male form arousing, you are always going to find penises arousing.

But if you prefer the female form, there's more than a 25 percent chance, more than a quarter chance, you're going to find penises. Penis is arousing, even if you're a male,

Baby: which is just fascinating. Like what

Malcolm Collins: the is going on here. Right? Like there's, there's clearly like a system at play in this way. I love researching this stuff because like psychologists, because they're so stuck in this gay straight dichotomy, they have missed that there is something more interesting going on.

Simone Collins: Yeah. I, it is so curious and I am so glad that Ayla, for example, is looking more into this, you know, they're actually. Yeah. People out there really diving deep with great, great sample sizes, too.

Malcolm Collins: And before I go further, this also I think shows how narrow and [00:22:00] religious the dichotomy of gay straight is as an identification.

And it's really an identity identification, no different from a religious identity identification. And I have no trouble with these Mormon men who are like, yeah, I'm same sex attracted, but I choose not to live that lifestyle. Why is that such a f*****g problem that these people are doing that? Like it's genuinely harder in a number of ways if you want to have a lot of kids to, they're like, Oh, you can have a lot of kids that you're in a same sex relationship.

Not in really, it's extremely expensive.

Simone Collins: Well, if you're a woman in a same sex relationship, you get double power. You've got extra bonus. If

Malcolm Collins: you're a man, it's extremely, extremely. It is, it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Simone Collins: yeah. We,

Malcolm Collins: we just. One of our kids godparents are two gay men and they've been trying to find a surrogate to work with them for half a decade at this point or something?

Simone Collins: Yeah, getting the right surrogate match, getting egg donors, [00:23:00] creating embryos. This is a, an often heartbreaking, incredibly frustrating, and very expensive process, and it's tough. And I can totally see why someone who is, you know, Pro needle list and broadly same sex attracted, but I think there's also this issue of it's it's weird that we would question people's chosen relationship formation when there are such things as political lesbians, for example, like, they're not questioned the same way.

Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: you're right. So for people who don't know what a political lesbian is, this was a phenomenon that was common, especially on Tumblr and within progressive circles where women would say, I just hate men so much. I will force myself to be lesbian, which is actually pretty easy for women, if you look at the data, because women's predominant arousal patterns are not tied to the gender of the partner.

They are tied to dominance and submission. But continue.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So the, that they're not controversial, but it is seen as incredibly [00:24:00] Taboo or hypocritical for a same sex attracted man to marry a woman like that seems weird, you know, there, there are many, many, many, even more logical reasons for a same sex attracted man to do that, not just religion, but also, yeah, I want to have kids or it's just Progressives

Malcolm Collins: treat this as like a sacred thing.

It's a sacred caste system for them. That's what I think is going on here, right? Like the urban monoculture sees gays that identify and take on a gay lifestyle as a deserving upper class. And they just cannot understand why anyone wouldn't want this designation because it made their actual goals in life, not arousal.

Easier, right? And they can be like, why don't they just adopt? Well, as one person said on our survey, our studies, when they learned that of adoptees, because we mentioned this and you have a face that's become like a meme in the community.

1, 1 percent of adoptees whose biological parents had 3 or more offenses were responsible for 30 [00:25:00] percent of convictions among adoptees. The 1 percent of adoptees whose parents had 3 or more convictions. We're responsible for 30 percent of the offenses among adoptees.

You were like, Oh, when you heard those things, which is the, the, the genetics that are correlated with the type of person who you might adopt are going to play out in, in their childhood and in their adulthood.

And they can make it, it can provide a good reason why somebody might be like, I really want to have genetically my own kids. I really want to choose who their parents are. Yeah, and I get that. And I think that you denying someone the right to do that when you as a heterosexual male, for example, that's just natural for you to be able to do that for free.

And you're like, oh, well, they should just stomach that.

Baby: It's like, why should

Malcolm Collins: they have to stomach that roll of the dice? Right? Like they should be able to have kids the way that they want to have kids. Yeah, [00:26:00]

Simone Collins: that we. It seemed to in our society for some forms of sexual attraction, like some forms of sexual attraction mean, ah, okay, this means that you now have this identity and you're part of this community and you need to, you need to adopt these accents and have these idols and that is going to be your life now, whereas there are other ones where it's like, Oh, that's your arousal pattern?

Okay, well, never tell anyone. Suppress it. This is evil. You are evil for holding this. Whatever you do, do not Tell anyone about this, don't do it, don't think about it, like, suppress it, you know, turn it off. This is

Malcolm Collins: why in our culture, we've actually taken a pretty and I think we'll get to more stats in a second, but I think the solution for pronatalism, the correct solution to get through this particular crucible, Is to completely disintermediate arousal and childbearing and relationship structure.

Simone Collins: That's the thing. That's the other thing I wanted to bring up is that the [00:27:00] idea that we are building marriages, lifelong partnerships that are really much more about aligned values and, and complimentary skill sets. On sexual attraction and not the 99. 9 percent of the other things that you need to make your lifelong partnership work is so insane to me.

And it's not

Malcolm Collins: gross.

Simone Collins: It is both. It's gross and, and, and, and very illogical. And

Malcolm Collins: it also removes the urban monoculture is biggest hook. If you can tell your kids, I don't care what. Porn you're into, what fan fictions you're into, what shipping you're into.

Speaker 11: Can't help it, I just think that they would make such a good pair. In canon, I don't care. I ship it. I don't care. I know [00:28:00] that they are siblings, but I think there's something more. If she were dating that guy, they'd be banging, I am sure.

Twins just can't really be that bad. You're on the cannon ground. I'm up in crack ship's face. Let's start a shipping war.

Don't care if I get hate. Don't like my pairing. Well, then you can Hit the bricks. This is my OP. I'll go down with this.

Malcolm Collins: All I care about is the way that you choose to live your life.

When you de stigmatize arousal patterns and you say your arousal patterns are accepted, whatever they are. So long as you do not act on them, and you live a virtuous life, despite whatever arousal patterns you have, I think that that removes one of the major hooks the left can use to get into your kids, and pull them out of society.

And if you want to, and you can watch our video on masturbation where we [00:29:00] talk more about this, if you want to remove anything that's anti biblical in this, you can just say, Okay, well then, only porn that is drawn, like hentai or something like that, or AI generated. Because then you're not looking at a woman other than your wifeless lust.

And by the way, there is nothing in the Bible about women not masturbating.

Simone Collins: There is nothing in the Bible about hentai. I checked.

Malcolm Collins: You have

Simone Collins: nothing in the Bible.

Pentime?

Malcolm Collins: Not there. So, you know. Fair game.

And by the way the people use the story of, oh, Nan, to try to argue that God is against masturbation is like psychotic and disgusting. If you are not familiar with this story, there is a law in Jewish tradition that you are supposed to. , if , somebody dies.

They're closest genetic relative their sibling. Is supposed to sleep with their wife to get them pregnant. So that that family's line can continue, , which is actually really important to that woman because , are you single woman without any kids?

And this society was quite . Difficult. , and so [00:30:00] this guy was commanded to sleep with his dead brother's wife to give that guy a continuing legacy, but rather than raising a kid, he would sleep with the wife. It appears he would actually have sex with her. Use her as a. ING Oni hole, but then come outside of her to ensure she didn't get pregnant. This has nothing to do with masturbation. , it had to do with somebody psychotically using his brother's wife as an only hole and not getting her pregnant.

And not allowing his brother to have the legacy that he was legally and religiously bound to do.

Well, I would note, and as you pointed out, the period where the type of porn that the Bible warns against is actually fairly a short period where you could have been looking at a picture of a real woman and not a drawn or AI generated woman.

You're looking at a period of maybe like 80 years. Where that maybe not even widely available, maybe 30 years in all of human history which is pretty wild there. And again, if you want to see our video on the Bible and masturbation, [00:31:00] you can watch it. If you've been told that the Bible says masturbation is bad, that's like a lie. Like it's a big lie. If you actually, the Bible even talks about like emissions and categorizes them and the emissions associated with masturbation are considered the same type of negative as having a period.

Wait, how many categories of emissions are there? There must be the overnight

Simone Collins: ones that

Malcolm Collins: happen. No, there's, there's diseased emissions, which create a longer actually the Bible interestingly categorizes pent up emissions. So like people who haven't masturbated in a long time, it's having a uniquely like bad type of emission that requires additional yeah.

Volutions and cleansing and stuff like that. This is the old Testament stuff. So it may not be relevant anymore. Okay. Wow. Well, basically people made up a bunch of rules about sexuality and then claim they were in the Bible when they're not in the Bible.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Anyway, continue. What's more are assumptions and, and again, people can say, well, doesn't the Bible say all this stuff [00:32:00] around gay sex?

No, it says stuff around you participating in gay sex. You shall not sleep with a man as you would a woman. It doesn't say you can't check off to gay porn.

Specifically here, I'm referring to gay porn that is drawn or AI generated and doesn't use real people.

It says that you shouldn't sleep with a man as you would a woman. That's two totally different things. If one of my kids was like, Oh, I want to jack off to gay porn.

I'm like, well, great. The Bible says nothing about that. Just don't marry a guy. Now, this is what I would recommend. Would I be okay if they really wanted to marry a guy? I mean, it depends on the technology we have in that period, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But I think that the number one thing is, is, is having kids passing their culture onto the next generation.

Simone Collins: It's not going to be a problem to marry dude. I'm super okay with guys marrying guys, especially like if they find some weird, Some way to have a lot of kids. It's more, and honestly, we're artificial moon technology is coming along. I think it's going to be okay [00:33:00] for our, any of our sons who are thusly inclined.

But I'm just saying, hold on. We got to

Malcolm Collins: go on with the statistics. We're getting,

Simone Collins: what

Malcolm Collins: were you going to say?

Simone Collins: Well, there, there are worlds and scenarios in which it would make more sense, even for two straight men to couple up and raise a family together. Then it is to, for straight men to pair off with women.

Like there, I could even see society getting so toxic and so fractured whereby straight men just have to swear off women entirely because they've gone completely off the deep end on average, you know, like there's just, there is a world in which it makes sense to have a dual income male family. It's just, I don't know.

There, I feel like there also have been a lot of gay power couples. You know, who just they're both economically and career wise, very successful. I just I'm just arguing that there is probably a world, not a world far from our timeline in which it would be [00:34:00] from a fertility standpoint advantageous.

for two straight men to enter a lifelong partnership to raise children successfully. Okay. Well,

Malcolm Collins: and, and, you know, you mentioned that, but like, even think about the MGTOW community. This is what I mean about disintermediating sexuality from child rearing. You could have two like ultra Chad alphas deciding to live together and raise kids together, but f*****g times another

Simone Collins: living.

You're describing Andrew Tate and his brother.

Malcolm Collins: Right. I, I basically am there, but the point that I'm making is this doesn't have to be like gay. It could actually be the opposite of gay if you're doing this. And you're taking this brother! I mean You should sleep around a ton while you are raising kids with someone who you respect, who you know isn't gonna The point being is there are alternate ways of structuring things that are that can work.

They're not what we've chosen, but that isn't to say that they can't work. work. So anyway, to keep going here, what's more, our assumption that secondary sex characteristics are all operating on the same sex system may be wrong as [00:35:00] 15 percent of women who reported to find the female form arousing in our surveys also reported to see breasts as an active turnoff.

And yet we don't see this happening in males. It would seem that humans may have dozens of independent arousal systems, which may or may not cloister to what you were saying here. Weirder still, some of the arousal systems seem to cloister in only one gender. For example, in men, arousal from the female form and breasts are tied together, but in women, it is common to assume arousal from one and not the other.

And keep in mind how high these numbers are, that 15 percent of women, huge, like way more than the gay population, find the female form arousing, but breasts actively disarousing. That's weird. That's interesting, yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Okay, now we're going to go into like the later section where we go like deep into the data on this.

Okay. But first, let's get the conventional interpretation of this out of the way. Typically, quote unquote, gay is a method of self identification for [00:36:00] individuals who are more aroused by stimuli they associate with individuals who identify as the same gender as themselves. In 2017, 4. 5 percent of Americans identified as gay.

This 4. 5 percent number was reported by Gallup. poll, and we understand it is much lower than most people think. As the same poll showed, Americans think the gay identifying population is 10 to 23%. For information on this phenomenon, see the paper, Not Threat, but Threatening Potential Causes and Consequences of Gay Innumeracy, which found overestimation of the size of the gay population to be common among groups that see them as a threat.

A more updated breakdown indicates Oh, sure. It's also, I'm sure, common among Multiprogressives and gay people, a more updated breakdown of this phenomenon. shows it isn't subsiding. The Gallup article titled, America is still greatly overestimate the U. S. gay population shows this. In our survey, only 3 percent of the participants identified [00:37:00] as gay and 8.

75 percent identified as bisexual. Our number is a bit low because we removed trans and gender fluid participants from the data set, which identified predominantly as gay or bisexual, which our surveys trans and gender fluid participants added back in, we get around the right number identifying as gay.

So now for the crazy stuff before we go into the individual like scatter plots, which I find really interesting on this. 10 percent of males find the naked male form aversive, but penises to be arousing. Of the men, so way more than the gay population, but literally like 3x the gay population, of men who find the naked female form arousing, a whopping 30 percent find the sight of a vagina to be actively , aversive, which just nobody likes vaginas.

That's basically what you see. We all, including

Simone Collins: women which I really relate to. I, I was, I was encouraged as a teenage girl You know, you're going to learn about puberty to like, hold a mirror down there. I've never seen down [00:38:00] there. Not once in my life. Cause I don't want to, I feel like it's, it's like staring into the maw of that, that monster in star Wars.

Well, I do not like, I don't

Baby: like it.

Simone Collins: Yes. That's like, that's what I'm afraid. I'm going to see if I look down there, I do not like it just so disgusting to me. So disgusting. So I really get that. And I think that's, I think it's another one of those things of Like just generally people like penises generally vaginas are like, you know,

Malcolm Collins: right?

So to continue going yeah, only one percent of males who find the female form arousing simultaneously find breasts to be a turnoff, but 15 of females who find the female form arousing find breasts to be a turnoff In general, we find female attraction to the male form correlates strongly to attraction to penises.

While 16. 5 percent of women who took our survey identified as gay or bisexual, a larger 30 percent of women who took our survey found both vaginas and the naked [00:39:00] female form arousing. Though, so, 16. 5 percent are gay or bisexual, but 30 percent find women hot in every way. Though oddly, only 18 percent of women found both Breasts and vaginas to be arousing.

Isn't that interesting?

Simone Collins: Yeah

Malcolm Collins: It's like wild. I'm sorry. It's either breasts or vaginas. Okay. So this this seems to be the way that Interesting. So it appears that many women who find the female form and breasts arousing Don't identify themselves as bisexual because they find vaginas. Repulsive and they assume that these things are correlated when they're not

Simone Collins: Yeah, because we've been completely But in this entire field of research for our entire lives,

Malcolm Collins: like wild, like sexuality, researchers haven't picked up on this.

I feel like the entire field of sexuality research is such like retarded children at this point

Simone Collins: part of it, though. I feel like there's so much inertia, [00:40:00] not just because of how academia works, but because in our society, So much of someone's identity now is tied to one's chosen or Yeah, because if we were to begin pulling that down and and as this show is that you describe right this show comes out and People are like what do you mean?

And that's because it's it's pulling at this very scary Fundamental reality shifting concept.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. All right, though only six percent of men who took our survey identified as gay or bisexual 11. 4 percent of the men who took our survey find both the male form and penises arousing. So, so, the are totally straight thing, this is another thing to note.

When we're talking about this population as a genuinely discriminated population in our country, i. e. men who find the male form in females arousing, they are likely As big a population [00:41:00] as the percent of men and identify as straight, they are likely as big a population as the people in our country who identify as LGBT.

That is absolutely wild.

Simone Collins: So what is this? The, the, the dark matter of, of gay men, the, the, are

Malcolm Collins: totally straight watchers for people who don't know are totally straight. It was a subreddit for men who identified as straight, but like to masturbate to males. And I'm like, I'm f*****g okay with that. You want to identify a straight straight is about how you choose to live, you know, do what you want, right?

You know,

Simone Collins: what's really, what's really interesting too, is that no one bats an eye when a lot of women online start adopting like, so drag culture is, is a big trickle down culture generator, right? No one bats an eye when people want to be culturally gay, even when they're not gay, because. Gay culture is super fun.

You know, I don't know [00:42:00] what to say, but yet, you know, somehow you, you can't choose to not adopt it if you have one arousal pathway that you've no control over. I think that's really interesting that like, yeah, no, everyone's welcome to adopt gay culture. You may not be able to pull it off, but you can, you can try.

You're,

Malcolm Collins: you're, this is going back to you. Your entire life should not be oriented around getting off as easily as possible. Like, it is so weird that for progressives, you try to, like It's not a good look. It doesn't look the way you think it looks. Yeah, you don't, you don't need to build your marriage, your relationship, everything you do around that.

And I'd ask you, Mr. Progressive, who's here being like, No, you absolutely need to build your entire Mr. Strawman, Malcolm, let's be Mr. Strawman, no, no, no, but I know there's somebody watching this who feels this way.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Is there literally nothing that you're turned on by that would be deleterious to society if you engaged in it?[00:43:00]

Literally nothing? Oh, and you're like, oh, well that's a different category of thing. Why is that a different category of thing? Why? For an individual who wants to have lots of kids, it may be deleterious to marry a man. Why is that a different thing?

It's a different thing because you want to, and there's this sick pleasure that I see progressives get off on, is labeling men who are in happy marriages and have lots of kids as gay. They're like, he's gay. I bet he's so gay. It's like, so, so, so pathetic, right? Like they engage in this sort of homophobic behavior.

That they claim to be against because they want to control the way that people live and force them into specific lifestyles and relationships that they have chosen not to engage with. And you can't deal with the fact that they have chosen. to [00:44:00] say, yes, this arouses me, but I will not base my life around it.

Anyway, thoughts before I go further?

Simone Collins: No, proceed.

Malcolm Collins: Male arousal in response to breasts seemed to correlate with arousal in response to the female form. 87 percent of our male respondents reported both to be arousing. There is a similar correlation in females in response. If a female survey respondent reported finding the male form arousing, it was very likely she would also find the Penises to be arousing.

71 percent finding both to be arousing. But keep in mind, that's not like 100%. That means around 30 percent of females who found the male form arousing and identify as straight do not find penises arousing. Not a single female in our survey group reported vaginas to be arousing, and the naked female form aversive. Very interesting. 7 percent of the female study population found the naked male form arousing, but the sight of a vagina aversive.

6 percent of our female respondents found both breast arousing [00:45:00] and the vagina aversive. 2 percent of the female study takers found the sight of a vagina arousing, but breast to be aversive. 36 percent of the female we polled found both the naked female form and the vagina aversive. And you know what?

I'll just be posting these while we're talking because it's much easier than going over them in detail. But they are the charts that show the female breasts arousing, naked female form arousing, female vagina arousing, etc. Because I found that to be really interesting. And oh, now we can get to size.

You want to get into size here? Penis size? Penis and breast size. What do people prefer?

Simone Collins: Oh, gosh. Yeah, this classic old favorite of ours.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and I point out here, just remember again, that only 3 percent of our participants identified as gay, and only 8. 75 percent identified as bisexual. So these numbers are of [00:46:00] mostly females and males who do not identify as gay or bisexual, okay?

Female, what breast size do you find most arousing in women? I'm just putting this on screen here. The statistic I find most interesting is I do not find breasts arousing at all. Despite the 3%, only 1 percent of men, this includes gay and