Detransitioners: The Culture War's Body Count - Discussion with Benjamin Boyce

In this thought-provoking interview, YouTube creator Benjamin Boyce joins Malcolm and Simone Collins to discuss the complexities of the transgender debate. They delve into Boyce's extensive work interviewing detransitioners, the concerning rise in rapid onset gender dysphoria among teenage girls, and the potential risks of puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones on brain development. The conversation also explores the societal implications of the transgender movement, the influence of social contagion, and the importance of open dialogue and education in navigating this sensitive topic. Boyce shares insights from his personal journey and his documentary on the Evergreen State College protests, highlighting the need for nuanced discussions in the face of polarizing ideologies. The group also touches on the role of religion, the challenges faced by different communities, and the importance of protecting children while fostering understanding and compassion.

Benjamin Boyce: [00:00:00] Anyway, so he, he was a very effeminate gay man. He goes on these hormones and stuff. And then he become, he comes of age 18, 19, but he's still like a little boy

and I'm like, wait, they were, it wasn't just a gay thing. Like they had a young boy. It was basically legal

Malcolm Collins: PDF

Benjamin Boyce: files?. Because he was, he had all the attributes of, he was locked at 14, but he's 19. Oh, that's

Simone Collins: so gross.

Benjamin Boyce: So they're like, he was preserved and then offered on the altar of this stuff.

Simone Collins: No. Oh no. No.

Would you like to know more?

Malcolm Collins: Hello everyone. It is so wonderful to have you here again today.

We have a very special guest with us today, Benjamin Boyce his YouTube channel has one of the highest overlaps of subscribers was ours And if you watch it, it would be immediately obvious that Why he does lots of very high thought, high intellect intellectually dissonant interviews.

Benjamin Boyce: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But what's interesting is I can get a trickle of what you think in your perspective from the interviews, but I haven't, I, I'd love to have an interview that's like the you [00:01:00] interview, what you think on things.

So I'm excited to at least be one of the people who's doing this. And one of the projects you've been working on recently that I think would be a really great start to this. Is I guess I, I call it like the de transition project, which is lots of interviews with people who are well known voices in the de transition community.

I'd love it if you could just get started with what got you thinking about this and where you see things changing within that community over the past year or so.

Benjamin Boyce: Can I answer that question by asking you guys a question? Of course. Like, when did you become cognizant or invested in what we call the culture war, in its current iteration?

Malcolm Collins: Wow. God, that's a good question. Honestly, not at all until they started firing at us. It's very interesting. So I would have considered myself Is this about

Benjamin Boyce: Spankgate? So just two or three weeks ago? Oh god,

Malcolm Collins: No, before Spankgate. It was the beginning of the pronatalist stuff. Really, as soon as we started getting public attention [00:02:00] you're forced to pick a side these days.

And at first, both sides were yelling at us. But the one side when we'd sit down and try to talk with them they could have a lucid conversation. And then the other side, there just wasn't really a conversation. It was just. Concede and submit to our world perspective.

I'm actually going

Simone Collins: to say it's earlier than that. It's when we got involved in education reform in the state of Pennsylvania. And the mere idea that we were critical of the legacy education system meant that we were going to be Republicans. Just like period of course you didn't Republican because you don't think public school is perfect and in need of more money and therefore.

Obviously.

Benjamin Boyce: Yeah. So what year are we talking about?

Simone Collins: At least 2019. Yeah. Okay. We were like firmly centrists. And then when we were younger, we were full out, like quite progressive Democrats. I would say. Yeah. Blue

Benjamin Boyce: Pills. Yeah. Do you guys have any remembrances or you might be too young of Gamergate?

Oh my God. [00:03:00] Of

Malcolm Collins: course. Would I, when Gamergate was happening, like I was well on the side of the gamer, like I was like, okay this whole five guys situation is ridiculous. This is clearly a bit breach of journalistic integrity. But I think back then there was still a believable disconnect between the, of the time, the Tumblerina army the Tumblr internet and the cloud agendas and all of this insanity.

And. The real mainstream democratic party. Like I didn't think that those people had any direct connection on the type of policy that would be implemented by a Hillary Clinton government. That changed pretty dramatically over time.

Benjamin Boyce: What's your memory of Bernie Sanders, the 2016 lead up.

I never

Malcolm Collins: liked Bernie. So I, my favorite progressive, but not

Benjamin Boyce: commie. Yeah. That's interesting. Okay. So you're already, the red pill is already leaking into your

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. No, I loved who was the other guy, the old guy who [00:04:00] was the anti Bernie, who seemed really cool? Ron Paul?

Ralph Nader? Ron Paul. I really liked Ron Paul. Ron Paul seems like a righteous dude. Ron Paul is what all libertarian bros are really into. In the early political dissonant days, I was Ron Paul count, not Bernie camp. One of, one of my favorite things about Bernie, and this is like one of my favorite stories about him, because to me it represents who he is.

And I think he truly is both him and Ron Paul, I think, show themselves really honestly in the public sphere. And the big, it was when he was a kid younger than us, like in his late twenties, I think is he went to a commune and they kicked him out because all he would do is stand up in like the common room and give speeches every day.

And I was like, this man has not changed over the past 50 years. And so he is honest about who he is. It's just, I think a malicious element in society. But Our malignant element in society. But what about you? Were you at Ron Paul Bernie?

Benjamin Boyce: So I went to this college, hyper progressive [00:05:00] college.

I didn't know that it was going to be hyper progressive. It was just down the street from where I was living. And it was really cheap state school. I was older. I hadn't gone to college. So I got the Pell Grant and it was just like basically free college for four years. So I could pause my life and.

Concentrate on what I wanted to concentrate on, which is what I ended up calling narrative arts. Like what is the function of narrative? How do you build it? How is it deconstructed? What are the different ways to arrange, rearrange and derive meaning from it? And so I went to this place called the Evergreen State College in Olympia, Washington, which has a very non traditional structure, no grades.

Courses are like completely immersive, three, four or five professors for a quarter or a year. You just go there, you sink your teeth in and a lot of independent work. So that's why I went there. But when I got on campus, it was like stepping from, what year was this? 2013 back into 1993, they had Pictures like posters everywhere, stop the war in Iraq, so there's still a little bit behind there by 10 years, which would all, by the time I left, [00:06:00] all those posters would be replaced by the BLM poster.

And then they had big posters about no one wins under patriarchy and like this really crusty kind of old. Weird Gen X feminist kind of bluster and gusto. And I'm like, okay, that's really weird. This is like ersatz or anachronistic. And as I went to, and as I like, progressed through my degree, working on my stuff, the civil rights or the civil rights 2.

0 anti racism via D'Angelo and even Kendi came and became central to the entire experience of the college where the administration empowered, very radical teachers to basically try to redesign the entire college experience around ending racism in our time. And that blew up in their face.

Phenomenally. It just completely the, what happened at my last four weeks of school is that the students who were taught to fight the system and end racism, turn that against the system that taught them that and took over this college. [00:07:00] took people hostage, live streamed the whole thing on the internet in this super cringey manner.

You guys should watch my documentary. It's if you're into cringe, if you're into like the end game of this progressive It's I document it all, but I'm ready

Malcolm Collins: for this documentary called of our fans want to watch it.

Benjamin Boyce: It's called the complete evergreen story. I'm currently doing a watch through because of seven years.

It just, the seven year anniversary just happened and me and my wife are now going through and watching the whole documentary. It's really extensive and it's not even complete because there's too many stories going on. I was there watching that whole thing progress and I was working in the media department.

I was on the camera recording these workshops. Yeah. I would say, as we've heard it's a, it's an interesting like an interesting if you look at the black community, there's a lot of people that are like, you know, we're in the middle of, You know, they're kind of, they're trying to, you know, reinvent the race.

students. Community

Simone Collins: groups. That's. What? Affinity groups. Like I [00:08:00] know we need like black people to hang out with black people and white people to hang out with white people because and I'm like this is, you are reinventing racism.

Benjamin Boyce: That's basically what got them a lot of press because the college had a, every year they had based on a Douglas Turner Ward play called a day of absence where this Southern town, all the black people don't show up for the, for a day.

And it shows just how much this town relies on the black people. And then they did that every year at evergreen, like do this the people of color, the POC would go off campus and they'd have a little thing. And then they come back and then they have a day of presence where everybody gets together and have a cultural sharing multicultural positive thing.

But one year, 2017, after the election of the former president, Possibly next president, Donald Trump. They decided to reverse that and ask white people to leave the campus. And they even required white students to not be on campus, go out in the woods and do classes like under tarps in the rain, because the campus was going to [00:09:00] center people of color because they wanted to be inclusive.

under diversity, equity, inclusion. And then Brett Weinstein, who's an evolutionary biologist, who has a lot of, you guys probably heard of him by now. He stood up against that and then got flack back and forth. And so when all the, it's a, this crazy narrative, I won't spend too much time on it right now, but all these layers upon layers of stuff going on in this tiny little campus, when you know, the students do this uprising, they live stream it, they're acting just insane.

And. The internet gets wind of this. Now, this is post Gamergate. This is 2017. A lot of people post Gamergate on YouTube had gone from, anti feminism to anti SJW stuff, which would then become anti woke stuff. So there was just a lot of hay being made out of social justice. Warriors. And that was just how people made their money was doing all these cringe compilations when the evergreen stuff just dumped all of that material on there.

They had a heyday. They had an absolute heyday. And I was already like interested in what was going on the internet, but I [00:10:00] didn't understand that people would just run with the narrative and not actually talk about what was going on behind it. And so what I did was I just took my phone and I started to record like a view from the inside.

And then I worked in the media department. So I got my hands on all of the yeah. Primary footage of how the teachers taught the students to rebel and explicitly said you need to uprise and destroy these bureaucratic institutions because they don't treat, they treat you just as bad as they treated your ancestors in the sixties or in the 18 twenties or, in the Caribbean and stuff like that directly they said that.

So my job as a YouTube person, when I got onto YouTube was to chronicle that, and I spent a lot of time just focusing on that one story. And then a similar event to get to your question, a similar event happened up in Canada at Wilfrid Laurier University, where a young TA named Lindsay Shepard was she showed a video with Jordan Peterson and this other guy arguing about pronouns.

And she was teaching in a [00:11:00] composition class and she. Politically just shared this about composition because if this is how language is changing, like what are your thoughts and the, her professor and her her, the guy in charge of the department over there and then their DEI All took her aside and grilled her for 40 minutes and she recorded the whole thing.

They broke her down into tears, this total struggle session and it was all about gender. And then that hit the internet. And again, the internet makes hay with that. And I'm like, there's something else going on deeper in there. So I started going through that college and looking at the gender issue. And I saw that these gender.

Activists, these trans rights activists specifically would are just the most borderline personality, narcissistic Machiavellian characters on the planet. They claim to represent this marginalized group and then they proceed to act like complete tyrants. And just like the black people are, POC did at evergreen, like these this handful of just [00:12:00] radical idiots took over and then just smeared.

That community that they supposedly represented, it's just replicating. So this social justice ideology or whatever this thing is, I don't know what you guys how you frame it, but that has a pattern that just goes over and over again. Once I got into the gender aspect of it I was just fascinated.

with this topic because I was tired of race. And I don't think that there's an end game with race. I don't know. Maybe we can talk about that. What you guys are your thoughts on the end game of race politics, but gender stuff is so dynamic. It creates children. It transcends race. And we always are struggling and it just, it's flies in the face of this kind of liberal ish assumption that we're all created equal.

And that, that different noticing difference is really problematic, but it keeps on protruding into our,

Malcolm Collins: I think both the race and the gender thing have really backfired on them in completely unique in different ways. Recently. The race thing, and this is [00:13:00] fundamentally what progressives don't understand,

Benjamin Boyce: sorry, interviewer hat. You said them backfired on them. Could you just define for the sake of the conversation you, they are

Malcolm Collins: the larger memetic structure that is obsessed with race.

The normal American doesn't give a s**t about race. It's just not important in our daily lives anymore. So you're saying,

Simone Collins: so them, them is defined by the activists that are actively trying to end racism. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: They have created a world Where they seem to believe that America is okay, this is the way I genuinely think the world works in their head.

America is 70 percent white, 30 percent black, and the 30 percent black is like this oppressed class. That, that is not The case in America. The, for example, Hispanic population is about twice as large as the black population. They cashed in all of their Hispanic chips by over indexing on the black population in a way that [00:14:00] completely marginalized the Asian and Hispanic population in this country, which are both fairly significant voting blocks.

And then They went even further by going this whole anti Semitic route recently. Which has, the Jewish population in this country, even if they're not a big voting block, they do have a lot of institutional power and wealth. And so that was astronomically stupid of them.

And so I think that this sort of missed is it's one of the things I often look at when I'm looking at like media representation is media representation. If you want to talk about who's not being represented. It's Hispanic people, like white people, we get like less than we probably should but low numbers when I'm talking about like percentage of the population, black people, like they seem to believe that black people represent all minority groups and that all minority groups like and identify with black people.

And that's just not true. One of the things I point out is that in the LA riots, The communities that were hurt the most were the [00:15:00] most recent immigrants because they had moved in right next to the black community. And in that instance, those most recent immigrants were South Koreans which were then radicalized because it was their community being burned to become a far right community.

This happened within many Latin American communities during the BLM riots, is that the towns and neighborhoods that were being burned And the shops were mostly Hispanic owned. And of course the media wasn't talking about this, but that again, doesn't matter because the media doesn't understand Hispanic families.

So I, as a white person, I get my media from like the news, right? Hispanic families get the media from their family networks. That is like their source of what's true in the world. That's also

Simone Collins: like Hispanic media, but it seems to be somewhat similar. Someone divorced family

Malcolm Collins: network information chains. Yeah.

Simone Collins: And

Malcolm Collins: so we have a lot of, our company is almost entirely Hispanic. We, like our friend network is heavily Hispanic. This is we're, we used to split our time between the US and Lima. Between

Simone Collins: Miami and Lima. So we were

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. [00:16:00] So the media, like the progressive tool for manipulating public opinion doesn't work as well against Hispanic communities as it does against other types of communities.

Yeah. So they just,

Benjamin Boyce: where is their outcry from the 2020? Were they just ignored or did they not complain if they were, we didn't see complaints.

Simone Collins: What we thought internal, we saw people left behind, like internally they're like. There's been a

Malcolm Collins: huge shift in the Hispanic community towards conservatism.

And then they have a problem that they don't understand the real American black community. So the real American black community. is more than anything else distrusting of authority. They're very conspiracy theory is the wrong word, but they are very open to these right leaning ideas of the powers that be are lying to you in attempts to manipulate you.

And this isn't like gullibility. It's something they've gone through multiple times learning from history. And it is clear to many in the black community, who is the power that be today. And it's this urban [00:17:00] monoculture, progressive, whatever you want to call it.

In regards to the the trans stuff, this is insane. And as you say, it's insane. Like I can't imagine being like a real trans person. Or like a real lesbian or a real gay person. And now somebody says I'm queer. And I'm like by queer, do you mean that you're a sexually aggressive, cis male sex pest that's pretending to be a woman?

Or do you mean that a lot of these quote unquote, trans women. When I was growing up, I was very involved in the LGBT movement. I really support the real gay, lesbian and trans community. What is being represented, like the people who took over this movement are just this male sex pests, largely speaking.

Benjamin Boyce: And they're female enablers. If you look at every major feminist organization that's connected to power, they're all on board and pushing the trans stuff. Hardcore. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Spread like a virus through many lesbian communities and ended up one of, one of the most interesting yeah, I was listening to, and I'd love to hear your anecdotes around this and a [00:18:00] lesbian who I respect talking about this recently.

And she's there was this weird moment when I went to a group house where three lesbians was living. And I went back a few years later and all three of them were transitioning. And I was like, wait, what are the odds that all of you just happen to be trans? This is supposed to be an incredibly rare thing.

And so I think that's, something that we've seen. As to why this disproportionately happened in lesbian communities. I don't I think and I know this is a very offensive thing, but I think that women are slightly more susceptible to social norms changes. Like they, they're more likely and you see this in the data as well.

They're more likely to support whatever the So the perceived social norm is that

Benjamin Boyce: some sort of evolutionary Stockholm syndrome baked in because women would be captured in combat and just have to adapt to new it could be. And also

Simone Collins: There's more dependence as someone who like when you're more likely to spend a significant or not insignificant portion of your life vulnerable to, to pregnancy or having an infant [00:19:00] with you, it would make sense that you'd be more compliant with whatever Society you have to depend on for some protection or social services or at least a little bit of assistance

Malcolm Collins: Also, I think that part of this is probably downstream of religiosity women historically were more religious and more spiritual than men and We've argued in the past that gender has taken on the role of the soul within progressive circles where they're talking about there's something about myself and it's not biological.

It's not how I was raised it's different than either of those, but it controls who I fundamentally am. It's that's what we used to call a soul. And so I think a lot of this is a type of a religion.

Benjamin Boyce: Yeah. I love how they don't do that with race. Like my inner black man, if they went that route with the race, racial soul, then Rachel Dole is all would be, would come out on top.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. I'm wondering yeah. So when you saw this happening, when were you like, I'm where did you? think you were a progressive or identify with the progressive movement when you were younger?

Benjamin Boyce: Oh, [00:20:00] no. I grew up in suburbs of Sacramento mostly. So red, but purple.

And, my, dad's pastor. So we were pretty much in church all the time. I did a lot of paper routing from 11 to, 18. And I would listen to Rush Limbaugh a lot because he had, he was really entertaining. And, he did all these bits and skits and stuff like that. And then I just went apolitical.

And then when I wanted to get political again, when post 9 11, George Bush W just goes in this holy crusade about just going after people that are millions of miles away or thousands, hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands of miles away have far Iraq is. And I didn't like that.

I didn't like the war mongering and stuff. And I wanted him out. And then Bush. John Kerry concedes. I'm like, this is just b******t. I spent all this energy caring about this thing that doesn't care about me at all. I was also living in Portland at that time in the 2000s when it was like the Portland that people wanted to move to [00:21:00] before people moved to and made it something else.

Yeah. Portland squared. But and I just had the sense before Barack and during, Obama's era that we're just in this, we're in this bubble where we're not really connected to reality and we have these beliefs. I just had the sense we have these beliefs about what truth and goodness is, but we are so coddled in this bubble and someday it's going to break.

Someday it's going to pop. And I just, I was uncomfortable with the smugness that, just became more and more ramped up. Over the course of Obama era, and then I want, I thought Bernie was You know, had some sort of mandate of heaven on some level and his treatment by the democratic party was just so awful that I just said, screw you.

And I went, I didn't go pro Trump, but I was just really happy how upset Trump made everybody because it was so hypocritical higher on their own farts. And that Just piss them off [00:22:00] so much. So it was I slowly became trollish, but then when I saw what happened at evergreen firsthand with the end game of this racial stuff where I like, they turned me racist where I went, I was on campus after that hostage situation happened and I saw a black person and I got literally the first time in my life, got scared and just turned around and went another way because I'm like, this person has all the power and can completely lambast me, accuse me of all these things and even beat me up.

And I have no recourse just based on the color of my skin. Imagine how Jews feel today if you've seen some of these videos. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's a yeah, that Jew thing, the Jewish thing really throws a wrench in the whole system. It upsets it, which just makes me really interested in how it, because a lot of like the Jewish people were complicit in a lot of the anti white stuff.

But then once it comes after them, then they're like, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're, We're there. We are the og oppressed class. We've been oppressed. longer and harder than anybody because we've been living [00:23:00] with these whiteys. So don't turn that stuff on us. But it seems like in colleges and stuff, I saw a lot of that, like that lot of Jewish people riding the anti white line up until, like it blows up in their face.

And then you're like, okay what did you expect? You're dancing around with leopards. I'm, this sounds like I might be a little, I don't know how it sounds. No, I think

Malcolm Collins: The problem we have is the conservative Jews. And the Orthodox Jews never went along with the progressive b******t.

It was always the reformed Jews, but reformed Jews are richer and they're more likely to be in colleges but like we always say people don't confuse Unitarian Universalists Christians was like Catholics, right?

And yet they often confuse Yeah. Like conservative Jews. Yeah. With reformed Jews. And I'm like, these are, it's a branding

Benjamin Boyce: issue. It's, their names are all the similar. So you just lump 'em all in. Yeah. They're all of one thing. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: But the reformed Jewish movement basically has no fertility rate.

Like they're going to be gone soon. They're basically just a a malignancy, which is [00:24:00] affecting this one generation of Jews.

Benjamin Boyce: Malcolm, I have to inspect this idea because you put a lot of stock into, fertility rates, like being drivers of meme.

The meme complexes and stuff, or like the, these meme complexes are not Yeah, I wanna hear pushback inseminating itself. But are we not at a time where the meme complexes are faster than genetics By orders of magnitude, can't they travel faster, infect more people than the other ones that breed people so that they can just Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: and you're absolutely right about that, but they in sort of their wave, they wipe out.

So it's a bit like saying okay. The Black Plague is spreading through our civilization right now, right? Except it doesn't kill people immediately, it just sterilizes them, right? And I'm pointing to one community that's been sterilized, and you're like, yeah, but it's continuing to spread in this neighboring community.

And I'm like yes, it is spreading in the neighboring community. I don't disagree with that, but it eventually burns out. Like it is true that it is spreading in neighboring communities right now, but it [00:25:00] hasn't fixed its fundamental issue that it hasn't figured out how to replicate itself other than through taking children.

And because of that, I just don't see how it survives. It can in some countries like in Germany where they've gone full Nazi where they're like, okay private school is not legal in this country anymore. Okay, we get all your kids. It can burn itself out. And then what does that end up looking like at the end of the day, German becomes what a Muslim country or something like that, because they know how to protect their kids.

Eventually, whichever group it is. Fundamentally knew how to protect their Children in a way that other groups didn't or the groups that come out on top after the disease is done. We're just in this period of fallout now where we can predict the various outcomes. We can't predict them with 100 percent certainty or anything like

Benjamin Boyce: that.

It's just because our, because the way that information travels so fast now and the way that kids are plugged into the internet from such an early age and the way that these algorithms work in a black box, there's, I [00:26:00] don't think that the battle so much can, we can just rely on fertility.

Replacing it has to be active and that's what you like, why your work, I think, is so important because you guys are speaking into this place that's dominated by these anti natalist forces, right? And you're providing pushback and upsetting the radfems and, Poking fun at the all these different groups that you guys find yourself being on the

Malcolm Collins: end of the whip of interesting points you make that has me reflecting on something that I hadn't reflected on before.

Which is to say, you're showing off your skills as an interviewer here. So this is why people need to go to this channel, right? The thing I was thinking about, you are the

Benjamin Boyce: gazelle. I am the cheetah

Malcolm Collins: Kiki. The different communities and how they react to, like, when I say communities, cultural groups and how they react to, or how susceptible they are to the virus.

And there's huge amount of differential here. So conserved Jewish communities seem to be uniquely, good at preserving their community values [00:27:00] without going crazy. They seem to have almost a complete immunity to the, this these intellectual viruses in a way that doesn't cause them to radicalize as to why I think it's because Jews are predominantly an urban cultural group.

We did a video recently, something like 89 percent of Jews or 98 percent of Jews live in urban centers. Can I

Benjamin Boyce: What do you mean by radicalized? Can you specify what you mean by that?

Malcolm Collins: So a weird thing that happens to some communities when they're hit by the urban monoculture is the iteration of them that is resistant to it or survives the interaction becomes like crazy radical.

So I think this is what happened to Protestant communities in the late nineties, early two thousands is that they were hit by the urban monoculture and their reaction to it was to become the form of evangelical that fits into popular culture today. But this sort of radicalization in response to contact seems to burn itself [00:28:00] out.

That iteration, that evangelical Protestant. doesn't really exist in huge numbers anymore, or not in a way that's actively engaging in the cultural conversation. If you look at the listened to conservative commentators they are predominantly of Catholic or Jewish heritage.

You're looking at like a Ben Shapiro or a, whatever, or bill O'Reilly. Oh yeah, Bill O'Reilly! Yeah, I'm pretty sure Bill O'Reilly was Catholic. He also wrote crime novels. But the question is again, okay why Catholics? Why did they not go crazy? They went a little crazy in response to this and their fertility rates have fallen more than other groups, but they seem to have a little bit more resistance to deep penetration.

And again, it's because they're a predominantly urban cultural group. Catholics mostly settled in urban environments. And so they're already

Benjamin Boyce: adapted to what is the special sauce in the urban,

Malcolm Collins: Were adapted to the proto version of this mimetic virus. They were they, which would be old

Benjamin Boyce: school multiculturalism, like being able to coexist with a bunch of different kinds of groups and then seamlessly [00:29:00] integrate through.

Commerce

Malcolm Collins: basically, you live in a city. You have to learn culturally how to prevent your kids from being deconverted in an environment where you're a minority. And the Protestant groups just never needed to pick up that skill. And so when this sort of virus like swept across the country, like the black plague or something, it just completely decimated their communities and turn them woke like super fast.

And then they began to put up what we call the colonizer flag based on a part of our discord, which is the the triangle flag. We call it the colonizer flag. Yeah. And

Benjamin Boyce: then the other faction of that same group that you're talking about broke Trump. Broke MAGA and became the blunt of the regime or the monocultures jokes and fears and a lot of the riling up, like they are the enemy.

If those who didn't succeed and going breaking towards progressivism, we're are the Number one outcast group. They are the ones that Biden talks about when [00:30:00] he's I'm going to bring, I'm going to unite us together to destroy this one group in our country. These mega ultra mega, people who are going in the NASCAR, who still believe in Jesus, but the wrong Jesus, the white Jesus or whatever.

So they are a very powerful group, but they are vilified inside and out by everyone. Every rung of the vertically integrated messaging apparatus. And

Malcolm Collins: one culture that was uniquely susceptible to this, maybe even more than the Protestants were the Mormons. The Mormons just were destroyed deconversion rate wise.

Within their culture and your

Benjamin Boyce: theory is that because they were so isolated by within a very specific chunk of time, 50 years in American history, they took a break from they were disconnected from the path of American culture for a certain amount of time and then it caught up with them.

Malcolm Collins: No. So the Mormons were destroyed for a somewhat unique reason. So Mormons were both isolated. They lived in mostly Mormon communities for a long time. But then in [00:31:00] addition to that, the Mormon community became hyper fixated on trying to fit in like being normal, being weird. And this drive to fit in with the perfect like black pill or kink in their armor, Cultural viruses could use to infiltrate the community.

Benjamin Boyce: Yeah. Yeah. I spoke with a ex Mormon. He's a therapist. And so he works mostly with ex Mormons. And it was just like hearing his story about how he was really plugged into this worldview, this Mormon worldview. And then he lost faith and he was in faith. Free fall and it was terrifying for him. So he grabbed onto progressivism and then he realized like, this is just as radical and just as disconnected from reality.

But there's no going from a really tightly formed meme plex or whatever you want, like belief system or ideology into this liberal wasteland. There's nothing to believe in and the people, a lot of people have to reconfigure how to believe or what is the function of belief. And progressivism [00:32:00] is.

Is a tight or a thick belief. Whereas liberalism is a loose or diaphanous belief system, like where you can have you bring your own, you create your own meaning, no meanings handed to you. It's really destabilizing for, the Mormon frame of mind when you're really deep into it. So I wonder if there's something there about liberalism's problematic relationship to progressivism or how this kind of liberal, anything goes, you do you, we do.

us. We just understand what reality and truth is. We're all going to work on that was so susceptible to this progressivism, which is a more thick belief or a narrow myopic belief, harder, hotter.

Malcolm Collins: I think you're right. I think that one is the funnel that leads to the other, like one catches you as you're falling and then funnels you towards the extremism.

Benjamin Boyce: That is, can we live in a world without extremism and do you guys in your consciously created ideology or, and I mean that in [00:33:00] a, just a non moralistic way. Are you building into your Children? Antibodies to radicalism. Have you seen have you played around with your ideas enough to say, okay, how could they be radicalized?

And what would the end of that radicalization point be?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I the radicalization of our ideas and the dangerous radicalization of our ideas would be extremist transhumanism IE AI over humanity robo

Benjamin Boyce: wombs.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, no, that's perfect.

Simone Collins: Of course, for

Malcolm Collins: us,

Simone Collins: that's

Malcolm Collins: perfect. The extreme radicalization is the discounting of humanity altogether.

Which is a potential downside of what we're doing. But we protect,

Simone Collins: I disagree with Malcolm. I think radicalism is inevitable and we have a radical religion and a lot of people see that and criticize us for it. But the stance, you guys are

Benjamin Boyce: already radical. Yeah. You cannot

Simone Collins: be a true religious devotee.

You cannot truly live your values without being seen as a radical by mainstream society. So we have to define radicalism. But [00:34:00] you're going to be seen as a radical if you adhere to your beliefs and if your beliefs do not immediately track with mainstream society, which in any person's lifetime, especially now in this period of rapid cultural iteration, you're going to seem at some point like a radical.

If you do not change with the vicissitudes of changing culture. For example, if you just, let's say like you held the mainstream political beliefs about gender and race and everything else from 1992, you would be seen as some kind of radical today. So I think that the nice thing about being a religious radical is that you are at least.

radically devoted to carefully selected values and objective functions.

Benjamin Boyce: More or less coherent system. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Instead of just this is what's correct. And what I would say is the worst kind of radical is one that hasn't basically come to a conclusion where they can show their work. They've just chosen a random, seems to be [00:35:00] correct answer.

And then that's where they're going. And that's what you're showing your

Benjamin Boyce: work right now. Oh, baby work there.

Simone Collins: She

Malcolm Collins: is wobbly. My first

Benjamin Boyce: infant interview.

Malcolm Collins: There you go. We're ruining this little infant's life by putting her on camera.

Simone Collins: Yeah. That's yeah. Someday someone will be critiquing this YouTube video and blurring her face out in their attempt to undo the evil we have done.

Stole her

Benjamin Boyce: soul before her time. Honestly, like I watched

Simone Collins: a lot of YouTube critiques of people who have babies in their videos and always they blur out the babies and it's not good. There is this kind of yeah, I'm preserving their soul. I'm not going to be a part of this terrible machine.

But yeah, anyway, I, what I'm really curious to know is what has surprised you in these interviews, because I think a lot of us come to blanket conclusions around, this is progressivism. This is what progressives think. This is what gets people to convert. But I think that there's a lot lost in, in those functions.

I'm curious. [00:36:00] Yeah,

Benjamin Boyce: So I'm I have about 80 interviews with de transitioners or around that topic and de transitioners fall into variety of different. Categories. So you have the male to estrogenize male to male de transitioner, and then the female to masculinize female to female de transitioner, and then you have the lesbian, or you have the straight girl, or you have the teenage girl, ROGD, rapid onset gender dysphoria, read a bunch of, fanfic, and was attracted to men, but like really disliked the power dynamics.

So imagine herself as a gay man to enact like that, what we were talking about earlier about the spicy straight queer stuff. And then you have males with autogynephilia, you have males with personality disorders, you have males with, pornography addiction, you have very hyper effeminate gay males who don't fit into society.

And if they just surrender and build on that femininity, they can just be accepted as a female. Cause they're never going to be accepted as [00:37:00] a like kind of Blair white, just as a very hyper effeminate male, you just don't really have a place in certain societies and stuff. One thing that surprises me to directly answer your question with regard to that kind of community, which is not a community because there's so many different people there, is just the resilience of the human soul.

And the central key in the detransition or story arc is where their soul speaks to them or where God speaks to them and say, you're lying to yourself. Stop lying to yourself. It's just such a, Beautiful moment. And then they look down and they realize it's usually after a very traumatic surgery that these doctors just sped them on either an orchiectomy penile inversion or a mastectomy.

They look down at their body and say, wait, I didn't like what I was, but this is not what I am. I'm not. This is not my pet destiny or something. And you just get this glimpse that we are, for lack of a better word, and maybe poking fun at Malcolm's interview with me, we are loved and that when we betray that, which loves us, we betray ourselves and we can't actually function in [00:38:00] this world without that connection, that really deep.

Belonging that is underneath all these other, hierarchy of needs and that D transition or arc, probably similar to like an alcoholics arc, like a lot of TV shows and movies over the last 30 years have overused the A format because it does have this. It's got this really convenient arc where somebody recognizes the truth.

And then apologizes, confronts their resentment, confronts their your regrets and then, picks up and moves on and then say, okay, I'm damaged. And everybody can see how damaged I am. Everybody can see how fucked up, I am. Because I participated in this lie, and then it shows the lie of the system, but it's no longer a political act.

It's no longer a political story. It's no longer a reformation story of the system. That's just gobbling up people. This huge satanic industry. That's basically Literally sacrificing children like you people cannot understand that are our current regime is worshiping Moloch. They are [00:39:00] sacrificing babies on the altar of this gender ideology and nobody can see that.

But if you these D transition or stories they show they just show this is a human thing, and so bring it back to the human and then you go to the universal and that's what it's not surprising. It's just beautiful to me. It's like damage.

Malcolm Collins: To your answer there one episode that hasn't gone live yet because I don't want to get, too cancelled, too many of these, too quickly.

Oh, you love it. I'll use the word, I'll use the word boobicide. So that what I'm saying here which is to say that it is widely known, like even the, who has training courses and Stanford has training courses for media professionals to not talk about boobicide because it's a very addictive concept.

And so whenever you have it happen publicly, they typically tell the story. Yeah, he's talking about

Simone Collins: the

Benjamin Boyce: real

Malcolm Collins: one.

Benjamin Boyce: I thought you were talking about this massive amount of Ectomies, not Ectomies. Okay. Which is a, breast center also a thing. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. What's really interesting is that they have created [00:40:00] this idea for young, impressionable people where they're like, okay, you are X now, and if you don't do Y, the only alternative is Bic side.

And like any previous study of this would be like, Oh yeah, of course, that's going to lead to a lot of kids doing it. And it reminds me of this South Park episode which we put in the other thing where Rob Reiner is going to kill Cartman. To prove that cigarettes aren't bad for people and that secondhand smoke can kill and Kurt was like, but he reads it and he's all happy to have all these adults paying attention to him.

And he's wait, what? And I feel like that's, unfortunately what's happening to a lot of young people is that anyone who understood psychology could have predicted the result of this ideology.

Benjamin Boyce: Yeah,

Hell do you think you're doing? This is the girls bathroom! Alright, I need to tell you something, I'm trans ginger. What?! Did you notice the bow? It's okay Red I can take a s**t here.

I'm a dumb chick, too. You are not transgender, Eric. You don't even know what that means. Yeah, huh, it means I live a life of torture and [00:41:00] confusion because society sees me as a boy but I'm really a girl.

Trust me, you don't want this hot potato. But this isn't a hurting, confused child we're talking about. This is Eric Cartman. Nobody else is gonna know that. You better just give him what he wants. All you gotta do is just read the words on the teleprompter here. Heh, okay. Let's see how the

Transphobes. deal with this.

You know, some people say there's no proof that

Not transitioning children. kills. I guess I'm the proof. By the time you see this commercial, I'll be dead.

Dead? That was fantastic! , what does that mean, I'll be dead? That was very good, Eric. Here, eat this cupcake. It has sprinkles. Do you know what a hero is?

A hero is somebody who sacrifices himself for the good of others. You can be a hero, Eric. . Jesus Christ!

Benjamin Boyce: That's I was interviewing somebody for I've been doing some [00:42:00] interviews with my spiritual group and, just different people's stories and stuff.

And I was interviewing somebody who's deeply involved in the in the deep state, literally, like they worked in Congress for years and years under Pelosi, under all these people. And we got to the idea of the trans kid and this person just was so on fire to protect the trans kid that they, I just saw in this.

Yeah, I just really saw like what Yarvin talks about or what other people talk about like the global empire like the global american empire like we want to eat all of your culture and the trans kid Is the one thing that can just put these women specifically these bureaucratic women on fire to go and you know Love everything about a culture except completely destroyed that facet of the culture that replicates the culture, which is the cultures where culture p