A Farmish Kind of Life

Homesteading will definitely keep you busy! But in order to run an effective homestead, you need to manage your time effectively. So let's dig into some tips about homestead time management. (Did you check out the first part of this episode about time assessment? It's a good place to start!) (Listen to today’s podcast by clicking on the play button on the black player bar above, or find the Farmish Kind of Life podcast on your favorite podcast player!) Summary of today's episode: Write down your to-do list on paper or a dry erase board (daily, weekly, monthly, seasonally) Have a family meeting so everyone is on the same page. (Did you forget about something else that was on the schedule already?) Realistically prioritize your to-do lists Keep a freezer inventory list, and check off what you use when you use it. Make a master grocery list that's in the order of the store you primarily shop at. ...or order your groceries online and schedule pick up for when you're in town. Plan your meals out. Seriously. Keep a rainy day/snowstorm list made up of those inside tasks that should be saved for when you can't be outside. Understand your house will be messier in the middle of harvest season. It's okay. You can't be two places at once. ...but also understand that if your house is impossible to ever keep "picked up", you need less stuff. Keep a farm journal. It saves you time in planning. Make your day as long as possible...without being ridiculous. Determine what your priorities are on the homestead. ...and then realize what needs to go because it doesn't line up with your homesteading priorities. (TV? Volunteering?) Routine, routine, routine. Do what needs to be done first. Save the things that can be done when it's dark for when it's dark. Farm out what you can. Ask for help when you need it. Tap into people's strengths and skills and give them the tasks they are best suited for. Learn skills that make things run more efficiently - it's the whole reason I learned to use a chainsaw. Fix what's broken. Replace what's not efficient. Upgrade/automate when possible. Streamline your systems. Put away your tools! Stay on top of the issues so they don't become bigger issues. Use available technology and modern improvements to tools. Don't get caught up in doing things the old fashioned way. Pay attention to and be honest about where your time is going. Use a timer if you have a problem with rabbit holes. Multi-tasking doesn't always save time. Understand each season on the homestead has it's own chaos and calm. Don't kid yourself that life will calm down in the next season. You. cannot. do. it. all. Make sure to take time for you. Links referenced in today's show: 060: How Much Time Do You Actually Have for Homesteading? Episode list of the Farmish Kind of Life podcast The Survival Podcast episode 2500: The Audience Speaks My Three Things from Living Free in Tennessee Homestead Menu Planning Tips How to Do it All Subscribe to my Farmish Kind of Life podcast at iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, PlayerFM, or other popular podcast players. All episodes of the podcast will also be linked under the podcast tab that you can find way at the top of this post in my menu bar.

Time management is definitely important on the homestead. But before we can talk about how to manage our time, we have to assess how much time we realistically have to manage. That’s what I’m talking about in today’s episode. (Listen to today’s podcast by clicking on the play button on the black player bar above, or find the Farmish Kind of Life podcast on your favorite podcast player!) Summary of today's episode: Not everyone has time to bake a batch of bread—simply because they're not home long enough to do it! Not every family has time to sit down and eat a meal together. Modern homesteading means there is sometimes a disconnect between the homesteading life people want to have, and the reality of the actual hours they have at this point in their life to devote to the journey they envision. Homesteaders who work full time outside the home certainly deal with their own set of challenges, but sometimes people who don't have as much time are actually more efficient with their time. Oddly enough, being home (or being a full-time homesteader) gives you so much flexibility with your time that you can actually end up being less efficient than you thought you'd be. Your normal is your normal—and that makes it hard to objectively (without tools) assess your time use and where your pockets of wasted time are. When you are busy, you should look busy. If someone was to peek into your life at that moment, they should be able to tell that you're busy just by watching you. Use the tools in the links below to figure out what hours in your day are left after the "essentials". You can also set a timer for 10-15 minutes, and then write down everything you did in that 10-15 minutes. Then repeat. You may be amazed to find out what your time is actually spent doing, or what you're not doing when you know it's being tracked. Time savers can save a lot of time, but not if we're just using them to fit more stuff in. Technology can be amazingly helpful, but it can also be a major time suck. Links referenced in today's show We Drink and Farm Things minisode #20: Drink and Live a Frugal Farmish Life It's Not About Money...except when it is (my frugal living book) 059: Homeschooling: Our Journey with Self Reliant Education Off Kilter Brownies (grain/gluten free brownies) Tool #1: Time Calculator Tool #2: Where does the time go - find out if you dare Tool #3: Where does the day go? Tool #4: Time tracking tutorial Subscribe to my Farmish Kind of Life podcast at iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, PlayerFM, or other popular podcast players. All episodes of the podcast will also be linked under the podcast tab that you can find way at the top of this post in my menu bar.

Homeschooling is sometimes considered the self reliant way to go about education. We've been a homeschooling family since 2007 and are often asked about our journey of homeschooling on the homestead. Why did we decide to homeschool? How did it work for us? What were the pros and cons? Is there anything we would change? That’s what I’m talking about in today’s episode. Note: The actual "how-to" of homeschooling depends on your reasons for choosing homeschooling, your educational beliefs and goals, and also what state you live in! If you'd like direction with that, feel free to email me: [email protected] (Listen to today’s podcast by clicking on the play button on the black player bar above, or find the Farmish Kind of Life podcast on your favorite podcast player!) The (absolutely cliff notes version) summary of today's episode: What made us decide to homeschool? My husband's work schedule—and also because I just wanted to. Why did we continue to do it? The longer our kids weren't in the public school system, the harder it would have been for them to go into it. The longer we homeschooled, the more our views conflicted with mainstream education. What curriculum did we use? We are much closer to unschoolers than "homeschoolers" and therefore learned mostly from real life experiences and interests on our own timeline. And yes, unschooling works. My 16 year old passed the exam to start full time college as a high school junior. What are some things to set up for kids to learn about on the homestead? Life on the homestead is just what happens on the homestead, and you do not have to set that up curriculum style. You won't even realize all the things you are teaching your kids just by them being involved in the things that happen on a homestead. What would I change if I did it over? When you're in charge of your kid's education, there are so many things you can worry about and I realize (now that we are so close to the end) that 99% of what I worried about or cared about never really mattered and caused me a lot of unnecessary stress. Pros of homeschooling - Flexibility with time Family time, family time, family time! You can learn about something as long as you want or can move on because you already understand it. You have time for super big, hands-on projects. My kids have had a lot of time to build in the garage (welding, building guitars, etc). They've also had huge amounts of time to hone certain skills. You generally don't get super skilled at a musical instrument in 20 minutes a week. My kids can and do spend hours a day working on this stuff. Cons of homeschooling - can be a lot of work, mental stress You have to provide opportunities, people, and other teachers (when necessary) for your kids -- which seems obvious, but it can be overwhelming if you are hyper focused on "I am self sufficient!" and try to do everything yourself. Although it's "self sufficient", it can also take a village. People will still critique what you do and don't do -- even within the homeschooling community. You will not get away from that. It can sometimes be hard to find your people within the homeschooling community. You can put a lot of blame on yourself when your kid is struggling, especially if someone else feels they should already be at a certain point in their learning or development. Links referenced in today's show. Off Kilter Brownies (grain/gluten free brownies) The Hmmmschooling Mom website Life of Fred (math) Story of the World (history, great projects!) Colton's music page Simon's music page Why kids need to see you fail Why you're not always the best teacher for your kids Support my content through Patreon Subscribe to my Farmish Kind of Life podcast at iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, PlayerFM, or other popular podcast players. All episodes of the podcast will also be linked under the podcast tab that you can find way at the top of ...

To be an efficient homesteader, it's important to pay attention to what's going on around you...and then prepare accordingly. But what exactly should you be paying attention to? What should you ignore? And how do you use that information to prepare accordingly? That's what I'm talking about in today's episode. (Listen to today’s podcast by clicking on the play button on the black player bar above, or find the Farmish Kind of Life podcast on your favorite podcast player!) A few thoughts from today’s episode: There are people in society—both homesteaders and non-homesteaders alike—that don't pay attention to what's going on. Some people do pay attention, but don't think far enough ahead to see how one thing affects the other. (This conversation originally started with people being concerned that farmers wouldn't be able to—or didn't—get their corn in at the begining of this last growing season, and how that would—or will?—affect future supply and prices.) We have to be careful what we're paying attention to and who we are getting our info from. When you get information from any kind of media, one side is often blaming the other for what is happening—even when they're talking about the same thing. Do not get sucked into this. You cannot effectively prepare for the future when you're caught up in who is to blame. Take the info you hear with a grain of salt, read between the lines, figure out how it actually affects you -- and then prepare accordingly. "Prepping" is a thing now, but understand, so much of what is done as "preppers" didn't used to be called prepping. Prepping doesn't always mean ammo, water, and bug out bags. It can be as simple as knowing Christmas is coming and you should really get started on knitting that blanket so you don't get behind. Things we should always be working on, not just because we're afraid it was a bad year of gardening or we've heard drama in the news -- Grow food, raise food, store food. Plan for next year's garden and next year's barn Greenhouse, cold frames, bring your planters inside Consider what animals you have on the farm and be realistic about what you need/can afford to raise/feed Ferment animal feed, grow fodder Be careful that your foray into self-sufficiceny and self-reliance in certain areas isn't actually costing you way more than it needs to Learn to barter and use it as much as you can. You will stretch your resources! Learn a skill. The more you know how to do, the more prepared you will be for whatever is coming your way. Learn about food and how it works in your body -- understand fat, protein, and carbs Eat what is actually available and makes sense to eat. Most of us are eating more than we need simply because it's available. Links referenced in today’s show: Holler Roast Coffee My (brand new!) Patreon page Episode 55: Smart Homesteaders Fix the Problem Learn Homesteading Skills: my favorite blogs, podcasts, and YouTube channels Subscribe to my Farmish Kind of Life podcast at iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, PlayerFM, or other popular podcast players. All episodes of the podcast will also be linked under the podcast tab that you can find way at the top of this post in my menu bar.

Feeding Cornish Cross chickens the right way is so important. If you overfeed them, you will end up with leg issues, heart attacks, and early death. So how much food should they eat? What does it cost to raise a Cornish Cross from day old chick all the way to freezer camp? Let me share with you the stats and tips I've learned after seven years of raising them. (Listen to today’s podcast by clicking on the play button on the black player bar above, or find the Farmish Kind of Life podcast on your favorite podcast player!) Amy, hold up. If Cornish Cross need such special care, why raise them? Why not raise a bird with more room for error? We've tried other meat birds, but choose to raise Cornish Cross because when all is said and done, we get the most bang for our buck with this breed. Dollar in, dollar out, it's the most efficient bird to raise for the meat you get. If you're trying to figure out what kind of meat bird is right for your homestead—because Cornish Cross aren't always the best choice—you can check out my book Choosing the Right Meat Chicken for Your Homestead, which compares five different chicken breed options that are often suggested to raise for meat. New to feeding Cornish Cross chickens? If you are new to raising and feeding Cornish Cross chickens, you may not realize how different they are from other chicken breeds. Cornish Cross birds are bred to grow fast. If you don't feed them correctly, they will grow too quickly and that's when you start to see sloth like birds that do nothing but sit and wait at the food pan for their next meal—partly because they're lazy, but also because they can't walk due to leg issues. You will also have chickens die off early because their hearts can't keep up with the growth. The best way to explain Cornish Cross is by telling you about a dog we used to have when I was younger. He used to bring us his food bowl when he was hungry. We thought it was cute, so we'd refill it. Every. Single. Time. You can imagine what happened. Cornish Cross are like that dog because they will try to convince you every time they see you that they are hungry and need to eat and if you don't feed them right now, they are going to die. And so the first time you raise them (just like our first time raising them) you may find that you're going through a ton of food—and totally overfeeding them. Which means they grow too fast. They have lots of issues. They die early. So let's talk about a better way to feed them. Suggested stats for feeding Cornish Cross Let's be clear: you cannot free feed Cornish Cross. You have to pay attention to how much you are feeding them. According to the back of the 50 lb bag of meat bird feed that we purchase, it states that (in a perfect world) in 8 weeks, 10-12 pounds of food will raise a Cornish Cross to a 5 lb. dressed product. (Dressed means feathers gone, insides gone, cleaned, bagged, ready for the freezer. Basically, what you'd be buying at the store if you went to purchase a whole bird for supper.) So. 1 bird. 8 weeks. 10-12 pounds of feed = 5 lb dressed bird. Which means—using the 12 lb per bird amount—50 birds would require 600 pounds of food total over the course of 8 weeks, or 12 (50 lb) bags of feed total. Doing the math, if it is suggested that 12 bags of feed will raise up 50 Cornish Cross in 8 weeks, that means you're feeding a little more than a bag a week to a flock of 50 birds. But is this realistic? Well. Let's see what we did. Our stats for feeding Cornish Cross (CC) In full disclosure, our stats are from CC raised in a very (very) large coop. My commentary on free ranging/chicken tractoring CCs is at the end of this blog post. We started with 50 chicks. One died the day after shipping. It is not uncommon for this to happen. We raised 49 birds all the way to butcher day. I fed 900 pounds (or 18 bags) to 49 birds in 8 weeks and had an average dressed weight of 5 lbs. 900 pounds is 300 pounds above what the suggested feeding is for...

Chicken butchering day is quite an event here at Clucky Dickens Farm. When we butcher, it's usually no less than 50 birds at a time. I'd like to share with you the open air chicken butchering set up that we've come to use after several years of chicken butchering experience. (Listen to today’s podcast by clicking on the play button on the black player bar above, or find the Farmish Kind of Life podcast on your favorite podcast player!) First of all -- if you aren't quite sure how to butcher a chicken, let me explain how to do that. If you already know how to -- let's take a look at all the items we use (in the order they are used) in the processing of our birds. Ready? Chicken Butchering Set Up Item #1: Kill Cones Also known as restraint cones, these are cones that the birds go into upside down, head first. The cone part keeps their wings from flapping, and you pull their head down through the hole in the bottom to cut their jugular. You can buy kill cones or you can make them yourself from heavy plastic or a similar material. If possible, it's nice to have adjustable cones (or make inserts that will go inside of them) so you can use the same cone for butchering different sized birds. Remember, there is a big difference in the size of an egg bird, a Cornish Cross, and a turkey. With a large cone, the egg birds might fall through into the bucket below. With a small cone, Cornish Cross birds will not fit to the bottom of the cone to pull their head through. Normally you would attach the kill cones to a wall or a fence post. We built this stand out of recycled materials around the farm and it has worked out well for us. It is sturdy and the ledge on the bottom holds the buckets at just the right height to catch the blood with minimal mess. You may also like: 10 Tips for Home Butchering Chicken Butchering Set Up Item #2: Propane cooker and large stockpot (aka turkey fryer kit) After a bird is dispatched but before you pluck it, you have to scald the bird in hot water (145-160 degrees) to help release their feathers for plucking. A turkey fryer kit is the perfect set up to get this done. In the photo, you can see a green stake to the side of the fryer with a wire coming from it. That green stake is to hold the display from a digital thermometer (and the wire is from the display to the actual thermometer in the water). It is very helpful to have a thermometer so you can monitor the temp of the water. It will be obvious the water is cooling down if the feathers aren't plucking as easily...but it's nice to know the water is cooling down before the chicken plucker informs you there are issues. ;) Pro tip: Know that if you're doing a lot of birds, you may have to add water as your chicken butchering event goes on. All the dunking and swirling of the birds usually means there will be some water lost. If too much water is lost, the thermometer will no longer sit below the water level, and your birds won't be able to be dunked as completely. Pro tip: Also, remember if you add water, you'll have to wait for the water in the fryer to get back up to temp—especially if you are filling from a cold hose. This is okay, though. It gives people a chance to catch up on their chicken butchering job or take a swig or two of coffee. Chicken Butchering Set Up Item #3: Chicken Plucker Here at Clucky Dickens Farm, I've never hand plucked a chicken. I give props to those of you who have. We have used many kinds of chicken pluckers since we began our chicken butchering adventures: everything from a small drill style chicken plucker to this large drum style plucker my husband built. It's similar to a Whizbang...but with a few modifications like a chute out the bottom for the feathers to collect into the tote. It keeps the mess in one area instead of having feathers spread all over the yard. A somewhat similar chicken plucker would be the Yardbird. If you're looking to build your own drum style chi...

To be a successful homesteader, you also need to be a fixer. But I'm not just referring to hands-on fixing, I'm also talking about the ability to move past just complaining towards taking action on the issues we're dealing with. And believe me—there's a reason this has been on the forefront of my mind lately. (Listen to today’s podcast by clicking on the play button on the black player bar above, or find the Farmish Kind of Life podcast on your favorite podcast player!) A few thoughts from today's episode: — There is a big difference between blowing off steam and pointless complaining—and you will know if you ask yourself is there productive action after the complaint? — People complain for lots of different reasons: It's a way to bond with people. If you don't complain, you fear that people assume your life is easy. Complaining is easier than making the (usually) uncomfortable choice that will bring about the solution to the problem. — When an issue arises on your homestead and you complain and don't fix it, you're just making noise. And you can't run an effective homestead by just making noise. — How many times have you heard someone complain about their aggressive rooster, or that their free range chickens are tearing up their yard—but they don't take steps to remedy the situation? They just post again in another forum, asking the same exact question. — It is most effective to focus your efforts dealing with things within your circle of influence/things you can control (health, children, issues at work or on homestead), and give less effort to worrying about the things in your circle of concern (the weather, the national debt, terrorism). — Don't get caught up in complaining about the stuff you can't do anything about. It only takes you away from the stuff that you actually have to do on the homestead—and I know you have enough to keep you busy. — When you complain, be willing to take action on the things you're complaining about. What are you going to do about it? — Complaining is sometimes the way to identify what we need to learn more about. — Pay close attention to what's going on around you and figure out solutions to what you may be dealing with in the future—but don't get stuck in the complaining part. Move into action to make things better for yourself, your family, and your homestead. — There are a lot of people out there who do nothing but complain. They are hard to be around. Don't be like them. — There are also people who are dealing with a lot of stuff and they complain very little. As in, yep, there's a struggle, now let's figure out what to do. Be like them. Links referenced in today’s show: Cook With What You Have by Nicole Sauce Join the A Farmish Kind of Life group on MeWe Should You Keep a Rooster? (episode 15) Five Truths About Free Range Chickens (episode 7) Habit 1: Be Proactive (FranklinCovey.com) Smart Homesteaders Keep Learning (episode 54) Check out all the episodes of the Farmish Kind of Life podcast Subscribe to my Farmish Kind of Life podcast at iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, PlayerFM, or other popular podcast players. All episodes of the podcast will also be linked under the podcast tab that you can find way at the top of this post in my menu bar.

There's something that smart homesteaders continue to do, and that's learn. This revelation came about the other day when I made sun tea—for the very first time. I can hear you now, asking Amy, you've seriously never made sun tea before? True story. And the simple act of sticking some tea bags in water and setting it out in the sun sent me on a path of deep thoughts about the importance of continuing to learn new things around the homestead. (Listen to today’s podcast by clicking on the play button on the black player bar above, or find the Farmish Kind of Life podcast on your favorite podcast player!) In order to continue being successful at homesteading, you have to keep learning. How else are you going to take your homesteading journey to the next level? Join today me as I talk about: -- The reality that you really don't know what you don't know -- How continuing to learn increases your self-sufficiency -- Why it's important to teach people about the homesteading things you know -- The importance of being part of a community when it comes to learning -- Project: list out the things you do know and what you don't know—and why it's really hard to make that list -- Examples of things I do know how to do—and the many things I don't -- Why we tend to get stuck in the information we currently have -- Why you shouldn't feel dumb or overwhelmed if you don't know something -- How modern homesteading gives us the option to be afraid to screw up—and why that doesn't help Links referenced in today's show: Cook With What You Have by Nicole Sauce Living Free in Tennessee - Nicole Sauce's podcast How to make sun tea in a mason jar The how-to of fermenting chicken feed The Backyard Herbal Apothecary by Devon Young Why YOU are a Homesteading Expert Homesteading Questions: There are No Dumb Ones The Gift of Community Subscribe to my Farmish Kind of Life podcast at iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, PlayerFM, or other popular podcast players. All episodes of the podcast will also be linked under the podcast tab that you can find way at the top of this post in my menu bar.

A new friend asked the other day, "do you have an blog post or a podcast episode on why you decided to be a homesteader?" As it turns out, while there are a lot of things I've talked about in this blog and on my podcast, I've never really talked about why we started homesteading. (Listen to today's podcast by clicking on the play button on the black player bar above, or find the Farmish Kind of Life podcast on your favorite podcast player!) So, what exactly prompted our head first dive into this crazy life? (Or wait. Was it head first? Or was it more gradual?) Join today me as I talk about some stuff and things like: -- Where we were before the farm -- How we ended up at the farm -- Our original plans for the farm, what worked...and what didn't -- What happened when life happened -- How I got lost in our plans and "got away" from homesteading -- What I needed to do to get back to it -- The importance of knowing your reason for homesteading and what your goals are -- How to determine what's extra and if it needs to go Links I may have referenced in today's show: Find me on MeWe at my personal account, the Farmish Kind of Life discussion group, and the Farmish page Episode 52: The Importance of a Handwritten Letter (and I swear I'm not a hypocrite) That time I asked other people why they homestead That time I explained why I call my life farmish Backwoods Home magazine (it's back in print!) Self Reliance magazine (by the same people that publish Backwoods Home) It's super awesome to open your freezer and see that its full—here are 5 ways to make sure that happens The really sweet chicken butchering set up we've figured out Why homesteading veterans actually need homesteading newbies Use our homeschool mission statement project as a sorta kinda guide to write a homesteading mission statement Subscribe to my Farmish Kind of Life podcast at iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, PlayerFM, or other popular podcast players. All episodes of the podcast will also be linked under the podcast tab that you can find way at the top of this post in my menu bar.

Someone give me a pen and a paper. I'm gonna sit down and write a handwritten letter. (Well, I mean, after I finish this blog post.) (Don't want to read all the words? This blog post is also a podcast—just press the triangle play button on the little black bar at the top of this post!) When I was younger, I had many pen pals. Even as an adult—before Facebook’s popularity—I found a pen pal through an old fashioned living/homesteader forum. And though she and I are now friends on Facebook, we do the vast majority of our communication by way of a handwritten note, letter, or card. The majority of people I’ve asked say they love to receive handwritten letters or cards in the mail. It lets them know someone is thinking about them because they put the effort in to sending them something special. However, most of those people I asked admitted they don’t send handwritten mail. While a few people said they don’t send cards or letters anymore because the cost is prohibitive, the majority of people I asked said they don’t send handwritten mail because it simply takes too much time. Time. You know, that thing we were supposed to be saving with all the technology and advancements we add to our lives? (That’s a whole different blog post, though, so…) Our communication now may be faster and more efficient, but is it actually better? Is it to be considered an improvement that we can blast off a paragraph's worth of response in less than 15 seconds? In some ways, maybe. But I’d argue that it’s not better in all ways or every situation. See, the thing I’ve realized is this: regardless of the reason for the death of the handwritten letter, the quality of our communication has changed because of it. And this is much deeper than what it first seems at face value. A handwritten letter requires time to write each word. I sat down to write a letter to a friend last week and was amazed at how much longer it takes to w-r-i-t-e out the very same words than if I were to type them out on Facebook. Do I want to write that paragraph about what the chickens/my kids/the neighbor did yesterday? Do I want to write out what I think of my friend’s sister’s boyfriend? Or should I leave it out? What’s really important or pertinent to this note? And how long will my 40-year-old hands and fingers hold out to continue this pen-and-paper letter? Which got me to thinking—if people had to hand write all their emotional, dramatic, political explosions, would there be as many of them? Or would we get better at sighing and scrolling past because it wouldn’t be worth our effort to drag out a pen and paper? Communication happens much faster now—and it's changed what we allow to be said. A handwritten letter devotes complete attention to the person you’re writing to. On social media, it is not uncommon for me to have several chats open at once. And while I can get a lot done in a short amount of time, I also haven’t fully given myself to any of the conversations I’m having. You can’t be scatterbrained about who you’re writing to when you’re using a pen and paper. There’s not enough room on the kitchen table to be working on 12 letters at once. You have to focus on one person at a time—which brings with it a sort of importance and reverence for the individual that’s being written to. A handwritten letter means a break in the day. It might have something to do with the fact that to write a letter, it requires that you take a break from what you were doing, but I tend to think that sitting down to work on a handwritten letter is just as enjoyable for the writer as it is for the receiver. I would argue that in the days when the handwritten letter was more common, people knew how to take a break every once in awhile. We could learn a lot from taking time for the handwritten letter. It’s more than just words on paper. It’s a break within a way to connect. But one of the biggest changes I see that’s come along with the ...